No Traction

Before I ask, I just want to mention that I have no expertise when it comes to operating a railroad. I know the general physics of how a train gets rolling on the tracks but that's about it...my physics stopped after high school! Someone that works or formerly worked for a railroad could you please give me some insight to my question?
I watched this video and I couldn't help but wonder (from the untrained eye) "what damage was or wasn't done to the wheels and the rail"? Since the roads were wet, I can safely assume the tracks were wet and I know wet rail can be troublesome.

If they sit for too long doing that the wheels will start grinding the rail down. The best remedy for wet rail is using the sanders of course. That video was a little much. If a boss had seen that go down there would be a arse chewing go down as well. That was in my opinion a total disregard of proper train handling techniques and abuse of equipment.

GN 599 wrote:If they sit for too long doing that the wheels will start grinding the rail down. The best remedy for wet rail is using the sanders of course. That video was a little much. If a boss had seen that go down there would be a arse chewing go down as well. That was in my opinion a total disregard of proper train handling techniques and abuse of equipment.

That's true, but there also anti-slip programs on locomotives to help prevent that. It doesn't CURE it, but they help. One way is to measure the difference in the speed of each wheelset and reduce power while at the same time applying sand. If you ever heard a lashup starting up a train, you might have notice that the engine speeds may not be constant. They may rev and slow, rev and slow until the train begins to move. As the train gains momentum, this speeding up and slowing down gives way to a more constant revving of the diesels as the amperage loading of the traction motors becomes more steady. This is not the engineer doing this, but the anti-slip computer adjusting the engines' speed to prevent wheelslip. That's one way they do it---there may be newer, improved ways of doing it. In the old days, engineers watched the amp gauges to apply sand manually (which still can be done today if needed) If the engine slipped down, the amperages would fluctuate wildly indicating slipping wheels so the engineer could reduce power and apply sand. "Tis a bit easier these days!


Gadfly

GN 599 wrote:That video was a little much. If a boss had seen that go down there would be a arse chewing go down as well. That was in my opinion a total disregard of proper train handling techniques and abuse of equipment.

I was thinking the same thing but where I don't work in the field, I didn't want to make the wrong comment!

Considering that it was prevented from moving by it's load, with the locomotive's weight, power, and traction on that rail, would those wheels just spin freely at about the same RPM as they would normally at the same position on the controller ?

I remember watching in ChoochooU a horribly boring video made by EMD in the 60s that shows their advanced wheel slip control system that was to be pioneered on the '40 series. They had a new GP40 I believe it was with a GP30 on an adjacent track (it was a double track RR, on a hill) and they did various tests to show how teh new wheelslip system was light years better than the old system. And the GP30 in the video acted similar to the GP35 in the linked video.....well, not quite THAT BAD but much worse than the GP40

Anyone else remember seeing that horrible video? hahaha

Gadfly wrote:

GN 599 wrote:If they sit for too long doing that the wheels will start grinding the rail down. The best remedy for wet rail is using the sanders of course. That video was a little much. If a boss had seen that go down there would be a arse chewing go down as well. That was in my opinion a total disregard of proper train handling techniques and abuse of equipment.

That's true, but there also anti-slip programs on locomotives to help prevent that. It doesn't CURE it, but they help. One way is to measure the difference in the speed of each wheelset and reduce power while at the same time applying sand. If you ever heard a lashup starting up a train, you might have notice that the engine speeds may not be constant. They may rev and slow, rev and slow until the train begins to move. As the train gains momentum, this speeding up and slowing down gives way to a more constant revving of the diesels as the amperage loading of the traction motors becomes more steady. This is not the engineer doing this, but the anti-slip computer adjusting the engines' speed to prevent wheelslip. That's one way they do it---there may be newer, improved ways of doing it. In the old days, engineers watched the amp gauges to apply sand manually (which still can be done today if needed) If the engine slipped down, the amperages would fluctuate wildly indicating slipping wheels so the engineer could reduce power and apply sand. "Tis a bit easier these days!


Gadfly

Yeah I am an engineer myself. I was just saying you wouldnt see me doing something like that. That guy was a little ridiculous. Maybe someone who has more technical experience could answer this. At what speed does sanding the rail become pointless? On our (BNSF) GEVO's they wont sand over 15 mph. I guess the folks at GE figured it was ineffective past that speed. I disagree as I like to use them on the hills coming into greasers especially. At 20 to 25 mph it seems to work as I dont have as much wheel slip (which means load dropping) when I have say a Dash 9 or something older. I dunno maybe its in my head. Any thoughts?

If they caught an engineer knowingly allowing an engine to contine to slip down and digging out the rail, he'd find himself "on the ground" pretty quick! There's nothing "funny" about slipping, and frankly I don't understand the fascination so many rail "foamers" have with it. I fail to see the humor in it. And neither will the Track Supervisor! Don't you agree?

I don't see any humor in it but wasn't sure if that was normal or if this gentleman was using the equipment incorrectly. From the untrained eye that was the first thing that came to mind when I watch the video but with out knowing if this was normal, I wanted to asked before making a comment.
However, I'm sure there are some that see this stuff and think its awesome.

I quickly watched the video, and wish to play The Devil's Advocate...

It appears the crew was running the consist from the 5007; and the trailing unit 5010 was slipping.

A bad MU jumper cable, trainline circuit, or an inoperative WHEEL SLIP lamp on the 5007 wouldn't provide any warning of the problem with the 5010. The crew (Engineer) could have been unaware of the rail grinding going on back there. The trainman (Conductor or Brakeman) that walked back there probably didn't associate whatever he smelled with a wheel slip/rail grinding.

Engineer: "Everything seem OK back there, eh?"

Trainman: "Yah, just smells a little hot, ya know."

Engineer: "Yah, I suppose it does ... I'm pulling 900 Amps and can't move the damn thing, eh!"

On locos of that vintage, I don't believe there was a way to test the trouble lamps to ensure they worked.

Without knowing for sure what the heck was going on, I would make a case for: No indication on the lead unit of the trailing unit's wheel slip.

However; if the Engineer was aware of the spark shower back there, then there's no excuse to be made for that spectacle.

imagine the problem then , in dpu units . though i would guess they have more sensors sending more information .

Yeah who knows what was really going on up there. Made for an interesting spectacle for us to see.

Jtgshu wrote:Anyone else remember seeing that horrible video? hahaha

Oh god yes JT I remember that mind-numbingly boring video about the EMD IDAC wheel-slip system. They put the dancing electron video on after that; you know, the one that looked like it was made in the late 50's about how electricity and current flow worked. I think they just liked to torture us with those...

I remember one night standing along the EL behind college in Scranton. A freight was getting ready to head south up thru Roaring Brook Gorge towards Nay Aug Tunnel. The setup was weird, instead of a trio of 6 axle power [SPD45s?] there was two w/ a 4 axle unit in between, it wasn't the normal head power I was used to seeing.

I don't know if the engineer was trying to just pull up b/4 his pushers got on the rear but he kept trying to go and just as the train started to move, the center 4 axle unit would break loose and spin all it's wheels. It was quite a light show in the dark night. After 4 - 5 attempts the engineer stopped and waited and you could hear the slack being pushed forward b/4 he tried to leave and was successful. 96 cars later there was the usual three 6 axle engines pushing, like usual.

Maybe he was trying to pull up to clear a switch to allow the pushers to get behind, you could see the frustration in the engineers face each time the smaller engine started spinning.

I remember reading an article a few years ago, Trains Mag, I think with a dedicated story on SD45's and their relatives. It mentioned the EL had on occassion match an SD45 and an F7B. While the SD45 had anti wheel slip protection , the F7B did not and while climbing a stiff grade, turn the F7B's traction motors into a "squirls nests".