NJT permits and the ACLU

preventative measures need to implemented order to discourage the intelligence methods used by organizations like Al Queda. At least NJT is proactive.

I would add one word to your analysis: NJT should employ Legal preventive measures. Even assuming they work to prevent terrorist information gathering (of which there is not a scintilla of proof), unconstitutional photo bans are not legal preventive measures. Hence, NJT may not employ them. Unless of course, you want to rewrite the constitution.

Why not use preventive measures that work? Surveillance of suspected terrorists, infiltration of terrorist groups, etc., etc.? Oh, that's right, it is law enforcement's job, whether it be local police, the FBI or the CIA. NJT needs to stay a little more focused on its job--running trains and buses.

Don't look now, but a transit safety guide issued by the Maryland MTA covering their bus, light rail, and MARC commuter rail system makes NJ Transit look like Santa Claus.

A couple examples from the brochure (not complete wording, but you'll get the idea):

Suspicious activity can be (but not limited to):

People in bulky clothing inappropriate to season.
People loitering around stations seeming to watch commuters and/or equipment.
Photography or filming of rail equipment and/or infrastructure.
People acting in an unusually nervous state.

There were a few more, but it ends by telling people to call police if they see any of the above going on. Now, I want to comment on the two that stand out:

"People loitering around stations seeming to watch commuters and/or equipment." All right, I guess that means if I'm waiting at the station for a loved one to come off a train and I'm scanning the crowd, I am suspicious and can be questioned by police.

"Photography or filming of rail equipment and/or infrastructure." Well the brochure does not specify whether it had to be ON or OFF MTA property. Seeing as how MARC only owns the stations and equipment and none of the right-of-way or crews on the trains, that can be dicey too.

Might be best to carry the ACLU's letter with the NJ Attorney General's ruling if you plan to railfan anywhere in Maryland between Baltimore and Washington!

Joe

Silverliner II wrote:Quote:
Suspicious activity can be (but not limited to):

People in bulky clothing inappropriate to season.
People loitering around stations seeming to watch commuters and/or equipment.
Photography or filming of rail equipment and/or infrastructure.
People acting in an unusually nervous state.

Most of that language is actually coming from the Feds, either through Homeland Security or the FTA (or both). I've seen almost the same thing on some of the Transit Watch brochures put out by the MBTA up here. My favorite is the part about reporting a "passenger behaving oddly." They clearly haven't ridden the Red Line subway thru Cambridge (Mass.) when they wrote that one!

Im not agreeing or disagreeing with this topic in this post, but i seem to be getting out of this discussion that people have the thought that there has never been any evidence of photos of trains or railroad infrastructure taken when members of suspected terrorism groups have been foudn and arrested. this is simply untrue.

There have been many instances of information and picture and diagrams of railroads and their infrastructure found when groups have been infiltrated, especially the group in Madrid. I was told of example after example after example of photographic evidence being found in our terrorism training that we had, and I WILL NOT divulge the examples, however, because I don't know how much is "insider info" to the railroad and how much could get me in trouble. But there is evidence, lots of evidence, of people who ended up doing bad things having current photos and drawings of railroad infrastructure and rolling stock.

So there is a reasoning behind why NJT was trying to stop photographing, did they take it too far, IMO, YES, but there is still a reason why they did so. Believe it or not, they have lots bigger things on their plate than making railfan's lives miserable.

So my advice, as a train crew member WHO HAS reported some people taking photos and diagrams on and around the trains, is to make yourself known as a railfan. Have a copy of a magazine or something. Ive reported people who made me feel uneasy. Ive also NOT reported lots of people too (there was someone in PJ the other night at the east end of the westboudn platform - i didn't report him) But if I get a bad feeling, i'm calling hte dispatcher. I don't give a DAMN about the ACLU ruling or whatever the rule are. If I have a bad feelign about you, im calling the authorities. You can talk to them. This is a time where we almost have to shoot first, and ask questions later. Because this isn't just a hobby for me, this is my life, and my life is at risk, along with hte hundreds of others on the train whom im responsible for.

Jt, what you are really referring to is the result of a free flow of information. We are an open society. Hell, you can get all the track diagrams you want from public documents and the design of buildings from public records. Put an end to free flow of information and you end our society as we know it.

Despite what you note, there is no hard evidence that NJT's policy is going to prevent the threat. True police work will do it. And yes, suspicious activity needs to be reported. A guy taking a picture of the support beams of a bridge COULD be suspicious and is worth investigating. But some guy in a bad shirt taking a picture of the front end of a Comet V cab car is NOT suspicious. Weird, yes, suspicious, no.

That is true, it is a free flow of information, especially with the internet these days. But that doesn't mean that they are going to only use the internet and know of all the various sites and places where they can go to get that information on the internet. And their evil higher ups more than likely would NOT want "second hand" information, but rather direct, first hand visuals of what they are going to be doing and how they are going to do it, adn the surrounding areas, escape routes, the whole track plan in the area, etc.

You can't get that from info from the internet. Pictures and information do not do the real word justice in painting a picture of a location for someone. If something were to happen, or they would be planning it, they WILL be out plotting and planning, taking CURRENT pictures (of moved security barriers for example), of roads closed in the area, new construction, new equipment, etc etc etc.

The use of the internet as an excuse to justify carefree picture taking (well the pictures are already out there, whats the difference???) is a very dangerous one. They will want current information, not information that can be gathered in a picture when they might not know when it was taken, what day of the week it was taken, the time of day, and might not show exactly what they want to see. So how will they get the info that they want? They will out out to the location and get it. That is why we report suspicious people near the tracks, sometimes taking pictures, sometimes taking notes, sometimes looking at things that "ordinary people" might not look at (say the supports of the new RT21 viaduct over the NEC). It might be something as simple as someone getting out of the sun while railfanning, or a "bridgebuff", or it might be someone looking to take the bridge down ontop of a train. Thats not up or me or the train crew to figure out, thats the authorities job. But its my job and duty and responsibilty to report those things that are out of the ordinary.

My point is again, railfan responsibily, and more than likely, you won't have any problems, adn won't be reported. Think if you were in my shoes. Are you in a place that could raise eyebrows? How are you dressed? Long trenchcoat in middle of summer? Things like that.

Jtgshu wrote: I don't give a DAMN about the ACLU ruling or whatever the rule are. If I have a bad feelign about you, im calling the authorities. You can talk to them. This is a time where we almost have to shoot first, and ask questions later. Because this isn't just a hobby for me, this is my life, and my life is at risk, along with hte hundreds of others on the train whom im responsible for.

As a daily passenger that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. I truly appreciate your vigilance that Jt.

There's been a lot of good info on this thread, so far. But, there remains the posit that terrorists are Arab guys with three day beards and dirty jeans. Tim McVeigh was a clean cut, military looking guy, the person you'd finger as a GI or a cop. Terry Nichols was a typical white, middle class guy. Nothing distinctive, no reason to give him a second look at little league or the church picnic.

Neither was anybody who would raise an iota of suspicion. But, they killed hundreds of Americans.

If jt, or me, or anybody else sees somebody acting in a way that seems suspicious or a danger to pax and crews, I HOPE they call it in. I've called in people whom I think are a danger to me, or train crews, or the public. And, I've been called in, too.

right just like Russians or Germans have citizens rat on other citizens ??

What concerns me is the "slippery slope" that we may be falling into. What exactly constitutes "suspicious" behavior? I live in a suburban environment, were 99.9% of people drive everywhere, and half the streets don't have sidewalks.
Does it make me "suspicious" if I choose to walk to the grocery store to get milk & sugar? What is "weird" or "suspicous" to one person may not be to another.
Do you think a potential terrori$t would want to go out of their way to look "normal"...say, with a little kid or two, plus a lady friend, pretending to be a "happy middle class suburban couple" meanwhile they're taking picutres of a trestle or interlocking or whatever on the NEC while they're pretending to take pictures of their "family"? Besides, why aren't there "no photography allowed" signs at NJT platforms? How about we have cops on every platform confiscating cameras? Or demand ID from everyone, or a security check? Another point: anyone forget how easy it was for the "terrorist" American Indians to derail trains in the West in the 1800's WITHOUT pictures?

I truly hope this madness & paranoia we've gotten ourselves into ends soon...

"Give me liberty, or give me death!"
Patrick Henry, March 1775

Sullivan once said in here that he always waves to crews. I have since taken up that practice. Sometimes the crews wave back and sometimes they give me a dirty look. Just make yourself known as a railfan if you're gonna make yourself known. Another thing I've tried to do lately when going railfanning is wear my goofy EL hat (my six younger siblings ALWAYS make fun of that hat on me). Yes, it is goofy, but it gets the point across: I'm a railfan. (Not that many people on the NEC would know what the EL symbol on my cap meant- a signifigant amount might but I suspect most wouldn't.) And if you can afford TRAINS magazine (I can't squeeze it in my budget) than by all means carry a copy around with you or some other form of railfan material as others have said.

DutchRailnut wrote:right just like Russians or Germans have citizens rat on other citizens ??

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I don't see it as ratting. I've been in and around railroads for 25 years, I have a pretty good idea of what's reasonable, and what isn't. And, I don't think a person should get a pass for being white or clean shaven. Lots of decent folks have long hair, scrufty beards, or a Yasir 3 day job.

If I prevent something that saves an injury to passengers or crew, I'd consider that a decent act.

nick11a wrote:Sullivan once said in here that he always waves to crews. I have since taken up that practice. Sometimes the crews wave back and sometimes they give me a dirty look. Just make yourself known as a railfan if you're gonna make yourself known. Another thing I've tried to do lately when going railfanning is wear my goofy EL hat (my six younger siblings ALWAYS make fun of that hat on me). Yes, it is goofy, but it gets the point across: I'm a railfan. (Not that many people on the NEC would know what the EL symbol on my cap meant- a signifigant amount might but I suspect most wouldn't.) And if you can afford TRAINS magazine (I can't squeeze it in my budget) than by all means carry a copy around with you or some other form of railfan material as others have said.

I have a shirt thats says "Still plays with trains", I have a buisness card for the New York Society of Model Engineers in my wallet, and a copy of the letter posted early on in this thread stating i have the right to photograph from public domain.

Don't carry a magazine, but maybe i should slip one into my camera bag.

sullivan1985 wrote:

nick11a wrote:Sullivan once said in here that he always waves to crews. I have since taken up that practice. Sometimes the crews wave back and sometimes they give me a dirty look. Just make yourself known as a railfan if you're gonna make yourself known. Another thing I've tried to do lately when going railfanning is wear my goofy EL hat (my six younger siblings ALWAYS make fun of that hat on me). Yes, it is goofy, but it gets the point across: I'm a railfan. (Not that many people on the NEC would know what the EL symbol on my cap meant- a signifigant amount might but I suspect most wouldn't.) And if you can afford TRAINS magazine (I can't squeeze it in my budget) than by all means carry a copy around with you or some other form of railfan material as others have said.

I have a shirt thats says "Still plays with trains", I have a buisness card for the New York Society of Model Engineers in my wallet, and a copy of the letter posted early on in this thread stating i have the right to photograph from public domain.

Don't carry a magazine, but maybe i should slip one into my camera bag.

Well, I hope I don't get any problems in Rutherford. I'm thinking of going there later this week for some photos.

As railfans, regardless of how we dress, whether we are in an area frequented by fans, or in other public areas enjoying our hobby, we will probably have to expect hard scrutiny for the rest of time now.

As I mentioned before, with regards to my Bound Brook experience, even with the permit, had the chain of command in communication included the train dispatchers, perhaps a lot of hassle could have been avoided.

If I may indulge in a brief bit of levity here....can you imagine crews getting a Form D at the beginning of each trip informing them that railfans with permits to take photography at "X" location at "X" times are to be expected?

Then again, that might not be a bad idea, though the non-railfan employees among those of us working T&E would be bound to be annoyed over copying D's for that every day....

Joe