NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

[mmi16]

From looking at a cab photo, yes.

If they have Dynamic Braking - the engineer in advancing the throttle from Idle to #4 notch, may have THOUGHT he was increasing the level of dynamic braking. Instead he was applying power. Either way, BIG MISTAKE.

[8th Notch]

No separate dynamic braking on those geeps from looking at the cab photo, you only would get dynamic during blended brake. That wouldn't be a typical scenario to use solo dynamic braking at a slow speed coming into a bunter even if the units were equipped.

[Tommy Meehan]

The train was traveling 8 MPH in a 10 MPH zone and was about 850ft (my math) from the end of the track when the train accelerated to notch 4.

The other mystery is, the timing that is shown for the brake application. This is from the NTSB statement:

The event recorder indicates throttle increased from idle to the #4 position while the train was traveling about 8 mph, approximately 38 seconds before the collision. Train speed began to increase and reached a maximum of about 21 mph.
According to the event recorder data the throttle position went from #4 to idle just prior to the collision, and then engineer-induced emergency braking occurred less than a second before the collision with the bumping post.

This indicates that as the train came down the platform track there was a period of about thirty or thirty-five seconds where speed was increasing without the throttle being moved back to idle and no brake application either. By the time the throttle position was changed back to idle and the brakes applied it was way too late to avoid ramming the bumper at an estimated 20 mph.

As I stated earlier, very odd.

[time]

For instance, if you went to hit the gas in your car to inch up in stop and go traffic, and nothing happened, your first instinct is to push further down on the pedal to get a response.

The train was traveling 8 MPH in a 10 MPH zone and was about 850ft (my math) from the end of the track when the train accelerated to notch 4.
Do you believe the engineer intentionally "goosed it" to increase speed as he approached a hard stop?
Would you consider it normal to increase speed while approaching a stop?

That's not what I posted; that's not what I posted at all. What I posted, was that there *could* have been a mechanical issue that prevented an adequate throttle response. The engineer *could* have started to "give it a nudge" like you would in a car in stop and go traffic, maintaining the 8 mph speed while approaching a stopped car many car lengths in front of you, or in the engineers case, the terminal. But, something happened at that point, obviously, that caused the throttle to be placed at notch 4. If the engineer tried increasing power to maintain speed, like you would in a car to keep an even speed, but the engine was not responding appropriately, he could have unintentionally called for more power than was required and when the engine did respond created a surge of unexpected power that created this disaster. OR, something else happened.

We'll know in a year when the NTSB releases the report.

[time]

The train was traveling 8 MPH in a 10 MPH zone and was about 850ft (my math) from the end of the track when the train accelerated to notch 4.

The other mystery is, the timing that is shown for the brake application. This is from the NTSB statement:

The event recorder indicates throttle increased from idle to the #4 position while the train was traveling about 8 mph, approximately 38 seconds before the collision. Train speed began to increase and reached a maximum of about 21 mph.
According to the event recorder data the throttle position went from #4 to idle just prior to the collision, and then engineer-induced emergency braking occurred less than a second before the collision with the bumping post.

This indicates that as the train came down the platform track there was a period of about thirty or thirty-five seconds where speed was increasing without the throttle being moved back to idle and no brake application either. By the time the throttle position was changed back to idle and the brakes applied it was way too late to avoid ramming the bumper at an estimated 20 mph.

As I stated earlier, very odd.

Odd, but you're assuming the speed increase was linear. For instance, what if the "increase" looked like: 8 mph 60 seconds, 8 mph 40 seconds, 7 mph 32 seconds, 8 mph 29 seconds, 8 mph 22 seconds, 15 mph 20 seconds, 21 mph 10 seconds, 19 mph 1 second, 0 mph 0 seconds. If the engine was malfunctioning, position of throttle and speed may not be linear.

[Kelly&Kelly]

We're certain that most engineers reading this has a fairly good idea of what happened. Now it's up to the NTSB and the consultant to rule out remote causes and contributing factors and coordinate the release of their findings with the political repercussions. No crises goes to waste politically. Watch how the release is crafted to force taxpayers to pay for a nationwide positive train control system.

[BuddR32]

We're certain that most engineers reading this has a fairly good idea of what happened. Now it's up to the NTSB and the consultant to rule out remote causes and contributing factors and coordinate the release of their findings with the political repercussions. No crises goes to waste politically. Watch how the release is crafted to force taxpayers to pay for a nationwide positive train control system.

Which I'm almost certain wouldn't help here at all.

Chuckie said something again yesterday about how these railroads need to make safe operation their priority, that he understands the need for profitability, on time performance, etc. If he really understood, wouldnt he understand that none of these railroads carry passengers for profit?

Question, is this line equipped with ASC? If so, wouldnt there be no code in the rails in the terminal, limiting the train speed or at least cutting out tractive effort at 15mph?

[8th Notch]

No code in the rails translates to Restricting in the cab and caps speed at 20 mph. Tractive effort is only cutoff if a safety system puts the train into a penalty application, it just doesn't drop out automatically if you are overspeed.

[Limited-Clear]

You will also get 22mph with a restricting, 23mph and your getting a penalty application

[sd80mac]

What I find particularly aggrivating are the press reports that the train 'went airborne', am I the only one? Th euneducated press is alluding to the fact that the ceiling collapsed, the train went airborne and crashed into the ceiling. The probability that it merely took out the spindly colums is impossible I guess.

The aerial photo at this link http://webcenters.netscape.compuserve.c ... CN11Z306_1 sugests that the train somehow pushed the concourse roof ahead of it, either because the roof is lower than the platform roofs, or the train climbed up over the bumper and hit the roof. If it bounced even a fraction of an inch when it hit the bumper, then 'went airborne' is technically correct.

Someone posted pic few pages ago, looking down the track stub. you can see the beam run across at the top of picture. Train would climb over bumper and the platform and hit that beam.

Also in other picture where it shows passengers walking across the track stub. you can see how bumper is set up. the footing is not behind the bumper. it is sitting in front of bumper. So if train hit the bumper and it did not rip off the footing. Therefore its likely that footing pushed the train upward into the air as bumper is rolled backward. So that's most likely how train took down the ceiling, especially that beam

[8th Notch]

You will also get 22mph with a restricting, 23mph and your getting a penalty application

Is that specific to NJT's equipment? I know I've seen most ADU's only allow 1 (maybe) 2 mph over before they whack you.

[Kelly&Kelly]

The LIRR suffered a similar derailment some fifteen years ago at Flatbush Avenue Terminal. An MU train traveling at twelve miles per hour struck a Hayes block. The block overturned under the lead truck, raising the rails and train five feet into the air and putting the lead car up on a platform at the end of the track. And yes, the top of the car went through the (then) wooden roof of the station.

[pumpers]

Hoboken is back in service starting Monday. COngratulations to all those involved in making it happen. Not 100% yet but great progress.
http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf/201 ... river_home" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BuddR32]

You will also get 22mph with a restricting, 23mph and your getting a penalty application

No code on LI allows for 17 (15 aspect)

[BuddR32]

The LIRR suffered a similar derailment some fifteen years ago at Flatbush Avenue Terminal. An MU train traveling at twelve miles per hour struck a Hayes block. The block overturned under the lead truck, raising the rails and train five feet into the air and putting the lead car up on a platform at the end of the track. And yes, the top of the car went through the (then) wooden roof of the station.

That was probably just before I hired on (April '01). I remember the 'temporary' terminal, I used to take the Hempstead train to Hillside from there. When it was raining outside, it was a deluge inside.