MTA Twenty-Year Capital Needs Assessment (October 2013)

http://www.mta.info/mta/news/books/docs ... idated.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The LIRR section begins on page 55. More information is in the Planning for the Future section on page 107.

Here are some things that I found interesting. I will try to omit things that we already know about. Some items will be copy/pasted, others I will summarize.

Reconfiguration of the Jamaica Complex
-Multi-phased design and construction of modernized track level infrastructure will streamline operations by eliminating conflicting routings and allow for train operation at higher speeds, through the utilization of higher speed switches. Work on this project also includes modernizing the aging signal system in Jamaica, and replacing signal components which are at the end of their useful life.
-Universal 12 car platforms for all tracks at Jamaica station.

Rolling Stock
-Diesel scoot cars would be a separate new type of car. They would not replace the revenue diesel engines and coaches, but merely supplement them.
-Diesel revenue and non-revenue engines and coaches would be replaced with new ones.

Electrification
-Expand electrification on the Port Jefferson, Main line, and Montauk branches to 16 stations in Suffolk County. These electrification efforts are anticipated to be undertaken in conjunction with double tracking and construction of new electric train storage yards, as a phased effort over multiple capital plans, and will likely continue beyond this 20-year planning horizon. (no specifics on which stations would receive electrification)

Additional Yard Storage
-Two new electric storage yards in Suffolk County on the Port Jefferson and Montauk branches in addition to the electrified Yaphank yard. (no specifics regarding size or location)

Stations
-Complete renovation of Babylon station

Track
-Concrete tie installation is planned on the busy Main Line west of Ronkonkoma, as well as portions of the Atlantic, Montauk, Port Jefferson, Oyster Bay and Port Washington Branches.
-Other track initiatives will address State of good repair needs at selected locations, including yard track throughout the LIRR network and direct fixation track on the Wreck Lead Bridge in Long Beach.
-Second track from KO to Yaphank
-Six LIRR-owned overgrade highway bridges, most of which date from the 19th century, are planned for replacement as well. (no specifics provided)

Communication
-The signal system will also be upgraded and modernized to continue the safe operation of trains. Despite ongoing signal modernization efforts, the railroad has the oldest cab signaling system in the country. The proposed replacement of these systems with modern, state-of-the-art equipment is critical to maintain prior investments and support the new rolling stock fleet.
-Another major initiative in the signal category is the implementation of centralized train control (CTC), which will migrate train control from towers in outlying locations into the Jamaica Central Control.
-The federally mandated installation of positive train control for railroad safety requires PTC investments to continue in the 2015-2019 plan. Investments during the time frame of this capital needs assessment include signalization efforts, wayside, rolling stock and other components for PTC.

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The "Planning for the Future" section is also an interesting read. They mention the need to build a regional rail network with thru-running. Penn Station enhancements are also mentioned. I'll leave the rest to you guys to read but I think that's a majority of the "new" stuff. Unfortunately, there was no mention of a third track from QUEENS to DIVIDE at all.

Why doesn't it mean anything about the Gateway Project?

Why doesn't it say anything about the Gateway Project?

Thomas wrote:Why doesn't it say anything about the Gateway Project?

I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in the "Planning for the Future" section since it would completely change the flow of rail traffic in and out of Penn Station on both ends. But since it's not an MTA capital project, it probably wasn't considered within the purposes of this assessment.

Thomas wrote:Why doesn't it say anything about the Gateway Project?

What does the Gateway Project have to do with the LIRR? Nothing. The Gateway Project will add tunnels that LIRR trains will not pass through and platforms that LIRR trains will not arrive at. Why should it mention the Gateway Project?

Regarding future electrification of 16 stations, seven are on the diesel section of the Port Jefferson Branch. The other nine:

East to Speonk or

to Patchogue (6) and Riverhead (3)?

R36 Combine Coach wrote:Regarding future electrification of 16 stations, seven are on the diesel section of the Port Jefferson Branch. The other nine:

East to Speonk or

to Patchogue (6) and Riverhead (3)?

As far as Yaphank is definitely on the list, I'm just reading the report now, so I haven't gotten that deep into it.

They keep talking about Main Line improvements. I think they don't want to mention the third track by name until funding is actually secured, or when the doubletracking to KO opens and constrains the Main Line even further.

It was said at the last committee meeting when board members were hunting for solutions to the capacity problem: "Unfortunately, some of the solutions are not politically acceptable. Let's leave it at that." (somewhat paraphrasing there, but the words "not politically acceptable" are verbatim)

Amtrak7 wrote:They keep talking about Main Line improvements. I think they don't want to mention the third track by name until funding is actually secured, or when the doubletracking to KO opens and constrains the Main Line even further.

The third track almost has to become a reality at some point. What are they going to do with all those added trains on the Ronkonkoma Branch? Reverse them down the Central at BETH?

I guess their long term strategy is to get the double track Farm to KO up and running and then show the bottleneck that the double track QUEENS to DIVIDE is causing in order to strengthen their position.

R36 Combine Coach wrote:Regarding future electrification of 16 stations, seven are on the diesel section of the Port Jefferson Branch. The other nine:

East to Speonk or

to Patchogue (6) and Riverhead (3)?

If Medford and Yaphank are certain, that leaves 14 stations.

If the entire Port Jeff is electrified, that leaves 7 stations for the Montauk, which would mean Bellport...

If Riverhead is electrified, Patchogue would be the end.

This is of course assuming that Port Jeff gets complete electrification.

inthebag wrote:If Medford and Yaphank are certain, that leaves 14 stations.

If the entire Port Jeff is electrified, that leaves 7 stations for the Montauk, which would mean Bellport...

If Riverhead is electrified, Patchogue would be the end.

This is of course assuming that Port Jeff gets complete electrification.

Riverhead and Patchouge would be appropriate endpoints, in my opinion.

I just don't want to be shoved onto a DMU for my commute. I quite like my one-seat ride to LIC in the morning as it is. Three transfers to get to work probably won't be fun.

If allowable, I wrote a brief description/analysis of all of the points in the 20-year outlook in this post (I wish this board would allow HTML code so I could just simply copy and paste it into here)

In my opinion, the track capacity projects are the most urgent and most crucial. We can order all the M9's we want, but without extra track capacity, most of them are going to sit in a yard someplace collecting dust as the LIRR won't be able to do anything with them.

lirr42 wrote:

inthebag wrote:If Medford and Yaphank are certain, that leaves 14 stations.

If the entire Port Jeff is electrified, that leaves 7 stations for the Montauk, which would mean Bellport...

If Riverhead is electrified, Patchogue would be the end.

This is of course assuming that Port Jeff gets complete electrification.

Riverhead and Patchouge would be appropriate endpoints, in my opinion.

I just don't want to be shoved onto a DMU for my commute. I quite like my one-seat ride to LIC in the morning as it is. Three transfers to get to work probably won't be fun.

Well the 7 stations East of Huntington to Port Jefferson (Greenlawn, Northport, Kings Park, Smithtown, St. James, Stony Brook, and Port Jefferson) all had high level platforms installed in the mid-1980's for anticipation of electrification all the way to PJ. Back then I guess they were thinking electrification to Huntington was one phase of electrification, just like Hicksville to Farmingdale, then Farmingdale to Ronkonkoma. Plus the PJ Branch would have to double-track too.

If electrification is extended from Babylon to Patchogue, that is going to be to quite interesting because Bay Shore and Patchogue in particular have SO MANY grade crossings. Could we see the Babylon facelift and grade elimination/elevation extend to Patchogue?

MattAmity90 wrote:If electrification is extended from Babylon to Patchogue, that is going to be to quite interesting because Bay Shore and Patchogue in particular have SO MANY grade crossings. Could we see the Babylon facelift and grade elimination/elevation extend to Patchogue?

Pigs will fly before that happens. And by that I mean actual pigs not inflatable ones that grace the cover of Pink Floyd albums

It would be too much of a hassle to build a parallel ROW, tear up the existing one AND build a new grade separated ROW through the territory the tracks run through. If I'm not mistaken NYC owned the land along the Babylon Branch ROW and (as stated here http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 63&t=51203" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) there was great political pressure for grade separation then so doing it now would take at least similar circumstances.

If the railroad considered doing a full grade separation they would have stated as such. And even if they did who knows how long it would take to even see anything become a reality. Look at Herricks Road. It took over 10 years or so just to get a shovel in the ground.

And are grade separations even necessary beyond Babylon? For one the Sunrise Highway does not run directly next to the ROW and intersect with roads perpendicular to the ROW that also cross at grade next to said intersections. And for a significant portion of the route there are residential streets on both sides of the tracks that would have to be torn up for 3-5 years or so cutting off scores of residents to their driveways. All that coupled with the frequency of a hypothetical expanded train schedule makes the need for such an ambitious project more or less non-existant. Currently there are around 34 round trips between Bethpage and Ronkonkoma. No plans to do a Babylon Branch-style grade separation there. Throw in the second track and that adds another... 10-15 round trips at least? Not exactly unheard of to have that high number of trains traversing X amount of grade crossings in one day. I believe the METRA "Racetrack" has a comparable, if not higher, frequency of service (not to mention lengthy freight trains too) with numerous grade crossings as well.

By comparison the Harlem Line north of North White Plains has around 41 round trips per day between NWP and Brewster with at least 3 additional round trips starting/terminating their runs at Mount Kisco with another AM inbound trip from Goldens Bridge. They all (with the exception of the Mt. Kisco trains) traverse multiple grade crossings (some located right next to the Taconic and Saw Mill parkways). Now granted they aren't as heavily travelled as I presume a number of the crossings between Babylon and Patchogue are, but are still decently used nonetheless. The only grade separations there are for the parkways themselves as well as some of the more heavily used secondary roads that already were grade separated due to topography, etc.

And for an extreme LIRR comparison try the crossing at Great Neck station on the Port Washington Branch at 50 round trips per weekday. And no chance of any over or underpass going in there with plans to add even MORE service with the opening of ESA. Or how about the crossings on the Main Line between Floral Park and Mineola at well over 90 round trips per weekday? And if any or all of those get replaced bundled together with or independent of a third track my guess is they'll likely be overpasses due to the relative ease of construction involved vs an underpass (i.e. Rosalyn Road).

Now the Babylon-Patchogue segment of the Montauk Branch has 23 weekday round trips. Throw in electrification and that number could easily climb to 40 or so depending on how they work around the single track east of Sayville or if the double track is extended (even if only in stretches wherever there's currently room) to Patchogue. In essence, a comparable level of service to an expanded Ronkonkoma Branch timetable. Even if the number went a bit higher I don't see how it would really necessitate more than at best a handful of highway overpasses.

I think the most one could ever see east of Babylon are more overpasses over the tracks to replace some of the grade crossings, but only in areas where the layout of the surrounding neighborhoods allow respectable distances for approaches, etc. And don't get me wrong IMO the Babylon Branch grade separation was a necessity given the traffic problems the grade crossings created, but I don't think residents east of Babylon want their towns literally cut in two by great mounds of earth bridged by elevated stations, even if they made them look like an exquisite Victorian-era train shed. Only if traffic ever gets as bad as it did in the late 1960s along the Babylon Branch (but without any injuries, fatalities, of course) would there be any substantial support/push for even replacing the grade crossings with overpasses, let alone a new elevated ROW.