Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Tommy Meehan wrote:Speaking at the New York Building Congress Construction Industry Breakfast Forum Tuesday morning, MTA head Joseph Lhota made headlines with remarks that there was "no chance" of the 7 line being extended to New Jersey. However, he also said:

Lhota also said he is a “big believer” in one day bringing Metro-North service to the west side

Below is a link to the article containing the quote.

http://www.rew-online.com/2012/04/04/tr ... -mta-boss/

The remark about bringing Metro-North to the West Side is the last sentence in the article. And that's all there is.

Would Metro-North service to the West Side necessarily equal MNRR service *to Penn Station*? IIRC the New York Central had a station on 10th Ave. somewhere in the West 30s-- there may be a picture farther back in this thread. A stub-end terminal somewhere in the vicinity of the Javits Center that connected with the newly-extended #7 line would be an elegant solution to the Penn Station congestion problems with which we are all familiar. Wouldn't have to be anything terribly fancy- I'm thinking the LIRR at LI City or Atlantic Ave. here.

I think in this case MNRR service to the West Side implies service to PSNY, not along the west side. Most of the recent news concerns the East Bronx and NH line, although I don't think he's excluding the Hudson line, either. In other words, I don't think he's necessarily discussing stations, just PSNY access.

That said, a station over there might have its uses, and I think has been previously discussed as well. They'd need to find a good spot for it so as not to impede the Empire connection, although I don't think there's a choke point for the level of traffic until you get to the tunnel under the yard. I think bringing it too far down may interfere with some of the other subway lines, etc. and of course the High Line is toast. I just have a hard time picturing where you'd put the terminal, tail tracks, storage, etc. unless you had enough slots to run them back and forth in a type of reverse commute.

You guys are really relentless.

Jeff I think a former NYC Deputy Mayor probably means "the West Side" when he refers to "the West Side." On the MTA website's Penn Station Access Study they have a map which shows two local stations on what is now exclusively Amtrak's Empire Connection. One station is at 125th Street and the other is at W.62nd Street. The terminal shown is Penn Station. Lhota has previously made it clear he means both the Hudson Line and the New Haven Line when he talks about MNR accessing Penn Station.

http://bronxboropres.nyc.gov/press/rele ... 6-19a.html

Bronx Borough President Press Release:

Testimony of Bronx Borough President Ruben Diaz Jr.
Before the New York City Council Transportation Committee

June 19, 2012

RE: East Bronx Metro North Railroad Services to Penn Station

The idea of providing one-seat rail transportation to Co-op City, Morris Park, Parkchester and Hunts Point is the most dynamic, and potentially the most important, transportation investment in the Bronx since construction of the subways during the early 20th century. Indeed, following the opening of the Inter-Borough Rapid Transit (IRT) subway lines to the Bronx during the 1920’s, the borough’s population increased by 530,000 residents. Thanks to the foresight and tenacity of those who were responsible for this critical investment at that time, these subways made the Bronx one of the most prosperous counties in the nation and the fastest growing borough of New York City.

Now, nearly one century, later we are on the cusp of a project that, for the cost projected, has the potential of being one of the most cost-effective and beneficial transportation endeavors for not just the Bronx, but the entire region. As envisioned Metro North Railroad, using existing track infrastructure, would offer rail transportation to approximately 160,000 Bronx residents who reside within one mile of the following locations:

1. Co-op City—a community of 60,000 people.
2. Morris Park—a community of 14,600 residents plus approximately 4,000 people working at the Hutchinson Metro Center and the Albert Einstein College of Medicine.
3. Parkchester—a community of condominiums and residences approximating 40,000 residents.
4. Hunts Point—a community of approximately 46,000 residents and home to one of the world’s largest food distribution markets, doing approximately $2 billion in business annually.

In addition to the obvious benefits Bronx residents would realize by having access to Manhattan in less than forty minutes, for the first time Bronxites could reach suburban employment centers without reliance on a car. Likewise, commuters to Westchester and Fairfield counties cold reach Bronx employment destinations without the need for a vehicle. This saves energy while reducing harm to our environment. The end result is an improved quality of life for the Bronx, along with increasing real estate values.

Finally, for suburban commuters who now reach Grand Central Terminal and then must transfer to subways for access to Manhattan’s west side, this new service to Penn Station will offer a choice similar to that now being made possible for Long Island Railroad passengers who prefer Grand Central access. Combined, these two new services would dramatically cut commute times, along with reducing overcrowding on our subways.

It should therefore come as no surprise that, when I convened a meeting with Metro North officials, community businesses and those representing many East Bronx neighborhoods, a capacity turnout was realized-with everyone present expressing their strong support for Penn Station access. Similarly, when the Bronx office of the Department of City Planning called a meeting at Fordham University to consider their study on Metro North services to various Bronx locations, representatives from Stamford, Connecticut joined those in the Bronx in support of East Bronx railroad transit.

The American Public Transportation Association (APTA) points out

1. For every $1 invested in public transportation, $4 is generated
2. For every $10 million invested in capital improvements, $30 million in business is realized.

The Regional Planning Association (RPA) says that real property values increase by 7% if located within ½ mile of a new railroad station and 5% within one mile of a new station.

If the Bronx, and indeed the entire service region of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA), is to realize its full potential both as a place to live and as a place of commerce, time efficient, cost effective and environmentally sound transportation must be available. East Bronx railroad service satisfies every one of these prerequisites. Therefore, making it happen is a top priority of my administration.

At this point, would it be useful to run some Bronx-only shuttles to New Rochelle? Or reverse-peak trains to Stamford? Penn's not happening until 20-whatever at least, if then. And you could do it with existing equipment.

Not to go too far off track here but could it be possible to run Stamford-LI City or Hunterspoint Ave if Penn is out? That way you could get folks closer to Manhattan.

Not sure if there is room for MNR trains at LIRR LIC yard,the M-8's cannot run on 25hz,12.5 kv used at Harold(phase gap at CP Gate,60hz/25hz).
Have no idea if Amtrak would allow and how many trains MNR can run across the Hellgate line.
The final "kicker" is how far the LIRR 3rd rail needs to be extended on the Hellgate line to allow M-8 changeover before the phase gap.
Harold still is under "construction" thanks to the LIRR ESA project.

Patrick A. wrote:Not to go too far off track here but could it be possible to run Stamford-LI City or Hunterspoint Ave if Penn is out? That way you could get folks closer to Manhattan.

I was thinking the same thing. You could run it with diesels for the time being (NJT's P40 yard sale?) and not have to worry about the third rail extension for now (to fix Mr. Backshophoss' issue). Maybe (at the risk of sounding far-fetched) you could have them run as SLE trains, since Amtrak is already operating those. Have them run Old Sadybrook thru New Haven, then Bridgeport, Stamford, New Rochelle, then the new Bronx stops, then terminate at Hunterspoint Ave. (yes, I know it's out of Connecticut, maybe have NYS chip in?)

The only downside is it doesn't really fulfill the "west-side access" that this whole thing has aims for. You'd be getting on an already packed (7) train which would dump you right on the east side...right under Grand Central... Yes, you could just stay on to Times Square, but you can get on the (7) at Grand Central anyway.

But progress is progress, and if they can get their foot in the door, go for it! I don't oppose expansion of rail service. Also it would get the new Bronx stations up and running and those customers into Manhattan in one way or another.

Amtrak crews can not run on MNCR other than national schedule Amtrak trains, SLE trains on MNCR are operated by MNCR crews.
MNCR crews can not run on LIRR trackage, without major union backlash, don't forget MNCR has different operating unions than LIIR or Amtrak.
As for trackage rights, MNCR has NO trackage agreement on hellgate or other amtrak trackage.
yes someone will say what about meadowlands trains, those were NJT trains operated by MNCR crews.

When everything is said and done at Harold,Amtrak will have more "direct" access to the Hellgate line from NYPenn,
it may not be possible to get to Hunter's Point Ave station from the Hellgate line.

LIC Hunterspoint is a bridge too far , and I'm not sure of the point. You still have to transfer to get to the West Side. The only immediate benefit I could see is transfer to/from LI bound trains without going into Penn and doing the cross-town shuttle.

I think the idea is just to get service in the Bronx rolling as it can be done with existing equipment and fairly quickly. Shuttle to New Rochelle and lay up there, or to Stamford. What interested me about what I posted from the Borough President is he mentioned Stamford sent representatives. One other thing I saw yesterday was the number of reverse commuters from the Bronx is up:

http://transportationnation.org/2012/06 ... -the-rise/

“Approximately 8.1 million rides were taken to and from Bronx stations last year,” said Wheeler. “That’s a threefold increase since 1985.” About two-thirds of these riders start their rides in the Bronx and travel to points north: places like White Plains, Stamford, and Greenwich.

“This is the largest reverse commute market that we know of in the United States,” he said, “and it’s grown 150% since 1990.”

...

The MTA is studying adding four Metro-North stations in the Bronx, at Co-op City, Morris Park, Parkchester and Hunts Point. But capacity for that service likely won’t be possible until East Side Access is completed, bringing some Long Island Rail Road trains to Grand Central — theoretically freeing up space at Penn Station for Bronx-bound trains.

Putting stations on the east side of the Bronx would be huge, and might take some pressure off of Fordham, which is the only Bronx station right now running the NH line.

Another article: http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/p ... featured-3

Of all Metro-North service east of the Hudson River, Bronx ridership accounts for 10 percent, about two-thirds of which involves travel between the Bronx and northern suburbs.

William Wheeler, director of planning at the M.T.A., described it in his written testimony on Tuesday as the "largest rail reverse commute market" in the country.

"Between 1990 and 2008, there was a 56 percent increase in the number of Bronx residents commuting to Westchester for work," agrees Jonathan Bowles, executive director of Center for an Urban Future. "During the same period, there was only a 4 percent increase in the number of Manhattan residents commuting to Westchester for work."

...

The proposal would not involve laying new track or building new rights-of-way, since the M.T.A. would presumably be able to use Amtrak's. But it would involve the construction of six new stations, four in the east Bronx—near Co-op City, Morris Park-Bronx Medical Center, Parkchester and Hunts Point—and two on Manhattan's west side, one at 125th Street, and the other possibly somewhere between West 54th and 57th streets and 10th and 11th avenues.

Jeff Smith wrote:Putting stations on the east side of the Bronx would be huge, and might take some pressure off of Fordham, which is the only Bronx station right now running the NH line.

These are very interesting links and I thank you for putting them up. I agree that connecting the East Bronx to Metro-North's New Haven Line would be a huge plus for people living in that area. Their elected officials are asking for it and I think they have to be reckoned with.

One problem I see is getting money budgeted for the new station construction. That might get put on the back burner for a while. As several of the offials mentioned, a lot of this may have to wait until ESA is complete. The transportation picture will be a lot clearer then.

Tommy, I guess the point I'm trying to make is the East Bronx can use that service now. Not to Penn, which I'm beginning to think is more of a "nice-to-have" and not as crucial as ESA is to LIRR. Don't get me wrong; I still think a few trains a day would be nice but the demand is not the same as ESA/LIRR.

No, I think the real value is the reverse commute market. I'm not sure about the station cost; I would venture that while it's a good portion it's not the maor portion. I would think "bridging the gap" from Harold would be the big cost, as well as just getting the slots into Penn.

And the point is, aside from scheduling and usage issues with Amtrak (no small matter to be sure) and station construction and design, this is something that can be run today, with existing equipment (given that there's about 100 or so M8's in service now). It can even be run with M2's (and might be a good idea for shuttles to start).

And if someone were asking me (and I'm no expert, but I understand the issues) that's what I'd tell them. MNRR should look at this as a two-stage project. And, when ESA is finished, and someone squeezes the slots out of somebody, they'll already have it up and running.

my big concern with this project is the way the pols talk about this as an only MNRR and LIRR issue. They act like NJT and Amtrak don't exist. If the Gateway tunnel is ever built, it's usefulness will be limited if the extra capacity vacated by LIRR is just taken up by MNRR, who can run (almost literally) as many trains as they want into GCT already, while NJT is currently maxed out at rush hour, limiting the agency's ability to expand service and alleviate massive crowding.

I hope this project happens someday. Yes, probably the majority of passengers would be reverse commuting, but you'll probably get a lot who commute into Manhattan, as well as those who would use it for tourist activities. One observation about Co-op City though; I know that section well because I have a relative there, and the majority of the population of Co-op City isn't in walking distance of where the station would be. The Hellgate Line passes along Section 5, on the west side. The section is separated from the rest of Co-op city by the Hutchinson River, and there are very few pedestrian routes from Section 5 to the other sections. Bay Plaza, as the crow flies, would be within walking distance to the proposed station if there were more paths, such as a pedestrian bridge over the Hutchinson River Parkway.
The NYCMTA runs a lot of buses around Co-op City and a lot serve Section 5.