by bostontrainguy
How about the "rehabilitation of the Falmouth Station"? Is there something new here?
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deathtopumpkins wrote:I thought it was implied that traditional CR trains will NOT be making Indigo stops? The map omits dots for them. So as I understand it, at least during peak times, the traditional trains will be running express past the Indigo stops.That's exactly why it's not going to work. It prohibits most of the scenarios I outlined for these lines to evolve from ever happening. Eastern Route again being where the most failure points are. Salem is so ridership-oversaturated it can't be omitted by any trains whatsoever; that IS a station you build an express to while skipping others. So if the Indigos have to go out there because Lynn isn't nearly enough service for the North Shore or because this is the only way to plausibly turn a train, squaring Zone 3 has to be reckoned with. DMU's probably can't run on 20 min. frequencies at peakmost peak and have to throttle it down by 5-10 mins. when the Newburyport/Rockports (which keep growing) are gobbling their highest hourly % of slots at saturated track capacity, so someone holding an Indigo pass @ Indigo fare ends up seeing a frequency dip at the 8:00am, 5:00pm crunches where they need it most. And worse, if the CR fares to the same stops are more expensive the 9-5'ers will start passing up the push-pulls to overstuff the DMU's. Flipping the advantages of the vehicles on their heads. Those 6-car bi-level push-pulls have the seating capacity to swallow the peakiest of crushes but only do optimal farebox recovery at peak. DMU's can recover costs much better off-peak with their lower seating capacity but can't swallow the crowds. Those 2000+, 9-5'er dominated daily boarders at Salem being forced to pick either/or pricing end up overstuffing the DMU's and leaving lots of seats open on the push-pulls. The push-pulls bleed more money, people can't get seats at Lynn and Chelsea and pass up the DMU, or the T has to buy enough DMU's to run 4+-car sets at only a few hours of the day and confuse its vehicle strategy to the point where it takes heavier losses on all.
In all likelihood though, you're right, and they'll need to adjust the zone fares down a bit. I just think that rather than jumping straight from $2 to $7.75 or whatever Beverly is now, they might want to gradually increment up to it.Definitely. And there's nothing wrong with making the CR-only audience pay a premium and have their Zones escalate faster overall in price outside the Indigo service area. That is the fair thing to do. But the recalibration is still going to result in fare cuts in the places like Beverly (with its 1750 daily boardings that are growing), with the systemwide farebox recovery suffering. Because those first 'tweener stops in Zones 3 & 4 after the end of the Indigos that have to get equitably adjusted down carry disproportionate system ridership. Those Zones 5 or 6 approaching 495-land that will carry steeper rises in fares tend to be much smaller ridership and tend to hit the branchline schedules more than the big Beverlys of the world.
Wednesday, January 29, 6:00-8:00pm, State Transportation Building, 2nd Floor, 10 Park Plaza, Boston
Wednesday, January 29, 6:00-8:00pm, Union Station, 2 Washington Square, Worcester
Monday, February 3, 6:00-8:00pm, Bangs Community Center, 70 Boltwood Walk, Amherst
Monday, February 3, 6:00-8:00pm, Berkshire Athenaeum, 1 Wendell Avenue, Pittsfield
Wednesday, February 5, UMass Dartmouth, 285 Old Westport Rd, North Dartmouth
Monday, February 10, 6:00-8:00pm, Lynn, exact location to be determined
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Can't the peak-hour DMUs be launched just 1 minute behind their expresses--essentially sharing the same schedule slot? (but not fouling the signals?) North Station is listed as "expanded" perhaps the Lynn-bound DMUs are being launched from Track "Zero" and by then we have a new drawspan and tracks on the Track 12+ side to launch the Lowell line DMUs on. And, one supposes, the "local" DMUs get turned and held at their "control points" (West Station, Anderson Woburn, and Lynn) and come "in" (in the AM peak), launched just 1 minute behind the express they "just met". If the local falls behind 1 or 2 minutes per stop (or two) it seems like there's plenty of time for them to make their local inbound run without the next inbound express chasing them down. Seems to me the DMUs would be strictly additive "infill"deathtopumpkins wrote:I thought it was implied that traditional CR trains will NOT be making Indigo stops? The map omits dots for them. So as I understand it, at least during peak times, the traditional trains will be running express past the Indigo stops.That's exactly why it's not going to work. It prohibits most of the scenarios I outlined for these lines to evolve from ever happening. Eastern Route again being where the most failure points are. Salem is so ridership-oversaturated it can't be omitted by any trains whatsoever; that IS a station you build an express to while skipping others. So if the Indigos have to go out there because Lynn isn't nearly enough service for the North Shore or because this is the only way to plausibly turn a train, squaring Zone 3 has to be reckoned with. DMU's probably can't run on 20 min. frequencies at peakmost peak and have to throttle it down by 5-10 mins. when the Newburyport/Rockports (which keep growing) are gobbling their highest hourly % of slots at saturated track capacity, so someone holding an Indigo pass @ Indigo fare ends up seeing a frequency dip at the 8:00am, 5:00pm crunches where they need it most. And worse, if the CR fares to the same stops are more expensive the 9-5'ers will start passing up the push-pulls to overstuff the DMU's. Flipping the advantages of the vehicles on their heads. Those 6-car bi-level push-pulls have the seating capacity to swallow the peakiest of crushes but only do optimal farebox recovery at peak. DMU's can recover costs much better off-peak with their lower seating capacity but can't swallow the crowds. Those 2000+, 9-5'er dominated daily boarders at Salem being forced to pick either/or pricing end up overstuffing the DMU's and leaving lots of seats open on the push-pulls. The push-pulls bleed more money, people can't get seats at Lynn and Chelsea and pass up the DMU, or the T has to buy enough DMU's to run 4+-car sets at only a few hours of the day and confuse its vehicle strategy to the point where it takes heavier losses on all.
Arlington wrote:Can't the peak-hour DMUs be launched just 1 minute behind their expresses--essentially sharing the same schedule slot? (but not fouling the signals?) North Station is listed as "expanded" perhaps the Lynn-bound DMUs are being launched from Track "Zero" and by then we have a new drawspan and tracks on the Track 12+ side to launch the Lowell line DMUs on. And, one supposes, the "local" DMUs get turned and held at their "control points" (West Station, Anderson Woburn, and Lynn) and come "in" (in the AM peak), launched just 1 minute behind the express they "just met". If the local falls behind 1 or 2 minutes per stop (or two) it seems like there's plenty of time for them to make their local inbound run without the next inbound express chasing them down. Seems to me the DMUs would be strictly additive "infill"It doesn't really matter. You can do kludges to solve any one problem easily enough. Every single one of them taken in isolation can have a straightforward solution like the one you outline here. But you can't manage the co-mingled commuter rail system on nothing but individual kludge fixes. Eventually as the Indigos scale to more service, more stations, more routes the whack-a-mole games multiplies too numerous to stamp out and fixes one place start conflicting with fixes another place. New inequities start to arise, and the entire means of fare collection gets so convoluted that it's no longer possible to memorize all the asterisks on the Indigo map or between DMU and push-pull schedules on any given route's station overlaps. Everything that's supposed to be clean and simple about this starts collapsing on itself in direct conflict with growth. Their solution to these problems has to be systemic and has to make the DMU's and push-pulls using these stations translate with each other, and has to make the escalation in Zone fares coherent across the system. There's no way to do that systemically without recalibrating the zones on both types of vehicles and forfeiting some revenue...at the heavy-use stops both vehicles use, and at the 'tweener stops like the Beverlys that are the next one out after the Indigos terminate.
houseman86 wrote:I have read the entire plan one of things that sticks out to me other then indigo line is the new green line cars by 2021. I was wondering if there replacing the whole fleet or if they starting with the older ones because really dont need to be place that soon. i thought it would take until 2024 until they begin replacing the whole green fleetThe draft report explicitly states they plan to replace the entire Green Line fleet. This is in line with what was mentioned at a public Green Line meeting I went to last winter. Having a massive Type 9 order lets them get rid of the high-level Type 7s and the unreliable Type 8s and leaves them with only one type of car to maintain.
MBTA3247 wrote:Given a complete re-fleeting, this is where I'd rather they be taking F-Line's plan to re-dimension the tunnels and then buy fully-standard trains: shave a few corners, undercut a few tunnels and buy a truly standard standard-dimension reality-tested car.houseman86 wrote:I have read the entire plan one of things that sticks out to me other then indigo line is the new green line cars by 2021. I was wondering if there replacing the whole fleet or if they starting with the older ones because really dont need to be place that soon. i thought it would take until 2024 until they begin replacing the whole green fleetThe draft report explicitly states they plan to replace the entire Green Line fleet. This is in line with what was mentioned at a public Green Line meeting I went to last winter. Having a massive Type 9 order lets them get rid of the high-level Type 7s and the unreliable Type 8s and leaves them with only one type of car to maintain.
Of course, that assumes the Type 9s aren't a repeat of the Boeings and Type 8s. They really should try using something off-the-shelf this time and just modify the dimensions.
Dick H wrote:Looking at what appears to be a disaster with the constructionI would second that.
and quality control on the Rotems, lets hope the "equipment
acquisition" offices at the MBTA get a complete housecleaning
before any more orders for any equipment are approved. A
whole new team is sorely needed.
NH2060 wrote: 2) The Indigo extension to Lynn, from my point of view, seems like a less expensive alternative to a Blue Line extension. I do however wonder why there aren't any additional stations planned (i.e. Revere). The stretch between Chelsea and Lynn is very densely populated (save for the segment through the Rumney Marsh) and yet no station(s). They wouldn't even need a kiss and ride with given the types of neighborhoods the line cuts through, just a couple of platforms, a decent amount of bike racks, etc. and you're good to go. That is, I would think one would be in that case.2 - I think you're thinking that the Blue Line is further away. Take a look at the line on Google Maps. I think it's a rather weak case for a stop. Wonderland Station is 0.4mi from where Revere St crosses the tracks up North, the 1A/16/60 circle is 0.5mi from Revere Beach Station, and Winthrop Ave/16 is 0.8 mi from Beachmont Station. And nothing South of the Chelsea River in the area of the line is more than a mile from the Chelsea Station. The thinking on this project (and given that they're sharing lines with full CR) appears to be more CR type station spacing, not Green Line spacing.
NH2060 wrote: The Indigo extension to Lynn, from my point of view, seems like a less expensive alternative to a Blue Line extension. I do however wonder why there aren't any additional stations planned (i.e. Revere). The stretch between Chelsea and Lynn is very densely populated (save for the segment through the Rumney Marsh) and yet no station(s). They wouldn't even need a kiss and ride with given the types of neighborhoods the line cuts through, just a couple of platforms, a decent amount of bike racks, etc. and you're good to go. That is, I would think one would be in that case.The Revere station across from Wonderland was studied by Boston MPO and got a low rating. Ridership projections were anemic.