Longer Train Sets

1. When will Newark-WTC Trains become 10 car trains?

2. When will Hoboken--33rd Street trains become longer--and how long?

The existing platform configuration at grove street station prohibits train lengths over 8 cars. However, due to the way the station is built, you could extend the platforms east. I believe this is is part of a renovation project that will also include an elevator.

Instead of asking when, why don't you ask why 8 car trains cant run to 33rd, i'll help you out here, because the stations in manhattan are built in bedrock and the platforms can only fit 7 cars. When they have money to dig out an expansion at each station. I'd give a time frame of 10-15 years till all the needed work is complete once funds are allocated.

25Hz wrote:The existing platform configuration at grove street station prohibits train lengths over 8 cars. However, due to the way the station is built, you could extend the platforms east. I believe this is is part of a renovation project that will also include an elevator.

Instead of asking when, why don't you ask why 8 car trains cant run to 33rd, i'll help you out here, because the stations in manhattan are built in bedrock and the platforms can only fit 7 cars. When they have money to dig out an expansion at each station. I'd give a time frame of 10-15 years till all the needed work is complete once funds are allocated.

What does bedrock have to do with station expansion?

Because, grove street has a long concourse, the walls on either side are right next to the tracks.

In manhattan, you'd need to excavate .......... bedrock.......... to do anything. That means possible sporadic station closures, and possibly periods of time when trains aren't running through the area for safety reasons, disrupting normal service. It would have a temporary impact on rider numbers and possibly put more pressure on the nearby alternatives.

There are all ready several discussions that cover most aspects of longer trains, if you'd care to look using the search tool? http://prntscr.com/2zrng4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thomas wrote:
What does bedrock have to do with station expansion?

Everything...

25Hz wrote:The existing platform configuration at grove street station prohibits train lengths over 8 cars.

They could handle it the same way as they handled eastbound Exchange Place pre-9/11 - "The first car(s) will not open at Grove St."

PATH experimented with a way to cut out some car doors from the conductor's position - the PA-4's had that and the PA1-3's were retrofitted as part of the "R" program. But those controls were never used (they're what was under the hinged plate that said "F/C/R" neat the top of the conductor's panel but was screwed shut). It was easier to just not open the front car's doors at Exchange Place, which is one of the reasons why the traditional conductor's position was in the first or second car.

Don31 wrote:

Thomas wrote:
What does bedrock have to do with station expansion?

Everything...

Lolz, I thought so.

But is the cost of lengthening train sets that run into Midtown likely to cost less than the Extension to Newark Airport Rail Station?

Thomas wrote:

Don31 wrote:

Thomas wrote:
What does bedrock have to do with station expansion?

Everything...

Lolz, I thought so.

But is the cost of lengthening train sets that run into Midtown likely to cost less than the Extension to Newark Airport Rail Station?

But it's a different pot-o-gold to get straight to EWR from NWK, that one if you want to expand a station length ...

Thomas wrote:

Don31 wrote:

Thomas wrote:
What does bedrock have to do with station expansion?

Everything...

Lolz, I thought so.

But is the cost of lengthening train sets that run into Midtown likely to cost less than the Extension to Newark Airport Rail Station?

its not just a matter of lengthening train sets, you need to lenghten the platforms to accommodate them. Its my understanding that the PA currently has a program of platform lengthening.

25Hz wrote:The existing platform configuration at grove street station prohibits train lengths over 8 cars. However, due to the way the station is built, you could extend the platforms east. I believe this is is part of a renovation project that will also include an elevator.

Instead of asking when, why don't you ask why 8 car trains cant run to 33rd, i'll help you out here, because the stations in manhattan are built in bedrock and the platforms can only fit 7 cars. When they have money to dig out an expansion at each station. I'd give a time frame of 10-15 years till all the needed work is complete once funds are allocated.

To add to this - if PATH were to expand 33rd St they would also have to relocate the switches south of the platform (they can't expand in the other direction of they would be in the 6th AV Subway's 34th St station). The switches are just outside the station.

I can't see platform extensions at the Christopher St (to the north) or 9th St stations (to the south) - the platforms would be really close to each other (similar to the Bowling Green/Wall St stations on the 4 and 5 - possibly even closer).

What PATH consider doing instead is installing switches between Christopher & 9th and between 14th & 23rd so they can route trains should there be a problem. Actually, it should be re-install because the H & M had switches there but when PATH took over they removed so they would not have to maintain them. Considering some of the situations they have with track work and occasional train breakdowns I am sure they wish they hadn't done it.

Allan wrote:What PATH consider doing instead is installing switches between Christopher & 9th and between 14th & 23rd so they can route trains should there be a problem. Actually, it should be re-install because the H & M had switches there but when PATH took over they removed so they would not have to maintain them. Considering some of the situations they have with track work and occasional train breakdowns I am sure they wish they hadn't done it.

The switch west of 9th St. was taken out because PA-1 and later cars didn't have clearance there. Since that area is still in segmented rings (it doesn't switch to cut-and-cover untl 12th St.), ripping out some more ring segments was more than they wanted to deal with.

The 19th St. crossover dated from when the temporary end of construction was at 19th, and served the same function as the one in front of 33rd today. It was then mostly-unused until the original 33rd St. closed on December 26th, 1937 and service temporarily terminated at 28th St. I don't know if it had clearance issues with PA-series cars, but based on experience elsewhere in the system, it probably did.

When operating single-track westbound through Grove St. on the (normally) eastbound track, if the interlocking at the west end of Grove St. is set to return you to normal and you operate through there at the speed allowed by the signals, you can scrape the center wall while crossing over, depending on how much sway you have. It's usually at the back end of the train, so the engineer and conductor may not notice it. Most engineers will take it a little slower to avoid this. The opposite move (normal westbound into Grove, then crossing over) is a lot less common and I don't know if you can scrape there, but I'd assume so.

Before they can extend either of those guys, you need to figure out how to get an elevator down there somehow, as the current narrow stairwells will do nothing for A. accessibility, or B. safe increases in hourly capacity.

Also the stations are far enough apart that a 155 foot extension would not make them any closer from a time standpoint. Walking would still take far longer depending on headways.

Don31 wrote:

Thomas wrote:

Don31 wrote:

Thomas wrote:
What does bedrock have to do with station expansion?

Everything...

Lolz, I thought so.

But is the cost of lengthening train sets that run into Midtown likely to cost less than the Extension to Newark Airport Rail Station?

its not just a matter of lengthening train sets, you need to lenghten the platforms to accommodate them. Its my understanding that the PA currently has a program of platform lengthening.

But isn't that program of platform lengthening only for Newark--WTC service?

Only grove street really needs lengthening. Newark has plenty of length, harrison is being replaced/rebuilt by an entirely new station, journal square has plenty long platforms, grove street needs lengthening, exchange place has enough room for 10 cars, and WTC has enough length for 10 cars.

The program is for hoboken to 33rd. I do not remember if pavonia/newport has room for 10 or even 8 cars. Any lengthening there would be tricky, as the entire station plus a lot of tube toward exp and all of it to the cassion are in fill, which generally is saturated by water year round. They may have to close the station during the entire lengthening project. Service would likely be cut there for at least a short time, leaving only hob-33rd and nwk-wtc service running during that time. HBLR and shuttle buses would have to pick up the slack, i guess. Thankfully the HBLR station is just through a passageway, so buses don't need to go over by the mall to connect there.

The areas in question have alternatives, it would make getting to and from certain places a bit more difficult for some travelers short term. The big benefit is that once all the stations do get their work done, combined with the signal system coming fully online would really improve total rider capacity, and trains per hour capacity. It will be a huge difference, and i think everyone will enjoy that.

25Hz wrote:Only grove street really needs lengthening. Newark has plenty of length, harrison is being replaced/rebuilt by an entirely new station, journal square has plenty long platforms, grove street needs lengthening, exchange place has enough room for 10 cars, and WTC has enough length for 10 cars.

The program is for hoboken to 33rd. I do not remember if pavonia/newport has room for 10 or even 8 cars. Any lengthening there would be tricky, as the entire station plus a lot of tube toward exp and all of it to the cassion are in fill, which generally is saturated by water year round. They may have to close the station during the entire lengthening project. Service would likely be cut there for at least a short time, leaving only hob-33rd and nwk-wtc service running during that time. HBLR and shuttle buses would have to pick up the slack, i guess. Thankfully the HBLR station is just through a passageway, so buses don't need to go over by the mall to connect there.

The areas in question have alternatives, it would make getting to and from certain places a bit more difficult for some travelers short term. The big benefit is that once all the stations do get their work done, combined with the signal system coming fully online would really improve total rider capacity, and trains per hour capacity. It will be a huge difference, and i think everyone will enjoy that.

I'll buy into the Harrison station replacement when I see construction begin.