LIRR Mainline Third Track Project

TheLastSay wrote:Reopening the Central Branch would destroy the residential neighborhoods that the ROW runs through. It would split them in half and add blight to every area that it would "serve". Sorry, but the Railroad closed up shop there in 1939 and to reopen it after it has been gone so long would just be plain wrong. If it was an operating branch, I believe in the "railroad was here first" concept. But to close it and then 70 years later reopen it? I don't think so. There was this AC in the trainmens room going on about reopening that branch and making a huge terminal in Valley Stream. I was thinking while he was talking how terrible it sounded. Nobody pays much attention to him anyway and he's despised. You got a fully operational railroad on the mainline. Why ruin neighborhoods by building a new branch separate from that.

Luckily it won't happen.

While I do believe the use of CRR would be a much better project (more trains, plus more areas served), I know it will never happen. I believe the point workextra was making is if this plan was offered it would make the 3rd Track project look better. Using the CRR should require very little use of eminate domain, so should be easier to push through courts, escpecially if the ROW is still owned by LIRR (is it?). Remember, the NIMBYs, while more of them, would still have their yard and house, which 3rd Track threatens. Given the choice of CRR or 3rd Track, which would people choose?

Funny thing -Which would get more anti CRR spport - NIMBYs not wanting trains passing behind their houses or golfers not wanting train through the course.

workextra wrote:This will be a reply just for the new stations: (not a total study of actual facts)
Clinton Rd, (Roosevelt field), NCC, (Eisenhower Park; summer only), North Merrick, Levittown, West Bethpage, and North Lindenhurst.

I agree with most of your stations. Do you think it would be possbile to eliminate Clinton Rd for one on or near the new Meadowbrook overpass to serve the mall, park and commuters with access from Merchants Concourse/Steward Ave? I do think Bethpage should be replaced with your West Bethpage, so most Ronkonkoma trains run on the CRR freeing up space on Main line. I would contenplate moving the Country Life Press station to the CRR for bus connection to Mineola, but I guess Garden City could serve that function. North Lindenhurst - so you want to electrify the currently used CRR as well and have them term at Babylon?

The whole Idea of mentioning the CRR in an official study would be to throw more support onto the 3rd track project. they do need it and it will happen, Late as usual with government money; but it will happen. The CRR is a done deal as far as I'm concerned, but mentioning it to gain support for the 3rd track is perfectly fine. The Amount of work and money to make that a reality would be cost prohibitive. The 3rd track needs be be done and hopefully they will get the money for it soon. I hope I was able to answer the questions of hrfcarl in regards to the 3rd track project and the CRR.

While I do believe the use of CRR would be a much better project (more trains, plus more areas served), I know it will never happen. I believe the point workextra was making is if this plan was offered it would make the 3rd Track project look better. Using the CRR should require very little use of emanate domain, so should be easier to push through courts, especially if the ROW is still owned by LIRR (is it?). Remember, the NIMBYs, while more of them, would still have their yard and house, which 3rd Track threatens. Given the choice of CRR or 3rd Track, which would people choose

That is correct hrfcarl. Mentioning the Pros' and Con's of both the CRR and the 3rd track will indeed gain support for the cheaper and easier 3rd track project. As the TheLastSay says, any rebuilding of the CRR would ruin the communities in which it will run through. This bi product should should pour more support onto the 3rd track and grade crossing elimination.
Am I right?
Let's please keep this on topic about building the 3rd track. I hope I answered the questions, anyone has on the CRR please PM me if you have other questions. I do not want to discuss it here because it's a sore subject and since it's not going to happen people tend to be offended by bringing it up.

workextra wrote:Let's please keep this on topic about building the 3rd track. I hope I answered the questions, anyone has on the CRR please PM me if you have other questions. I do not want to discuss it here because it's a sore subject and since it's not going to happen people tend to be offended by bringing it up.

I am sorry if I was offending anyone with my posts sounding more like "rebuild" vs "this is what it could have been". Too bad Mr. Levitt, as well as Mr. Moses, did not see the light as to what that branch could have meant now. I know it would have meant splitting that community, but since it was a planned community, the tracks presence could planned, maybe trenched or elevated, to be in a "downtown" area with a wide boulevard/main street surrounded by shopping and resturants. The CRR is just another lost railroad resourse.

Thanks for the info.

No SirRay he was talking about the route through East Meadow and Levittown. If he was talking about the West Hempstead connection than I didn't hear all that he said, but nobody listens to him because he is pretty hated and ignored. Anyway, I think they would have a harder time reopening that route than they would a Mainline 3d track. Its been gone too long and would ruin the areas it runs through.

TheLastSay wrote:No SirRay he was talking about the route through East Meadow and Levittown.

But you have him saying: "huge terminal in Valley Stream" - sorry but Valley Stream is a fair distance from Levittown, and a revived Central branch.

I am not very familiar with the details of the 3rd track project, but I am not understanding why the Central Branch option is being discussed as if it would require reopening the whole branch. Specifically, rather than use the part of Central Branch that would involve areas that has seen no train service in 70 years and is in the middle of residential areas, why not just use only the portion of the Central Line that is west of the Meadowbrook, and then connect back up to the main line (near Roosevelt Field) east of Westbury. For example, eastbound trains that would otherwise use the third track could leave the main line at Floral Park and travel over the Hempstead branch, which has plenty of capacity, continue east after the Garden City station (rather than south to the Hempstead terminal) out to Roosevelt Blvd., then use the existing railroad bridge to cross the Meadowbrook Parkway, then on a newly constructed elevated guideway across the parking lots/retail/industrial area east of Roosevelt Field (maybe with an option for a park and ride station there) and then -- maybe this part is tricky -- over the cemetery on Old Country Rd. between Post and School and back to the main line.

The only place a third track would be necessary on the main line would be in the industrial areas (south side of the tracks) between Westbury and Hicksville. And all the new track would be built in industrial/retail areas. It would have to cost less than the $1.5 billion they are proposing for the third track project, and avoid all the headaches of getting close to people's homes in New Hyde Park, Carle Place, etc . (Of course, with the detour down to the Hempstead branch, travel times would be a little longer than a full main line third track.)

expresstrain wrote:I am not very familiar with the details of the 3rd track project, but I am not understanding why the Central Branch option is being discussed as if it would require reopening the whole branch.

hrfcarl wrote:While I do believe the use of CRR would be a much better project (more trains, plus more areas served), I know it will never happen. I believe the point workextra was making is if this plan was offered it would make the 3rd Track project look better. Using the CRR should require very little use of emanate domain, so should be easier to push through courts, especially if the ROW is still owned by LIRR (is it?). Remember, the NIMBYs, while more of them, would still have their yard and house, which 3rd Track threatens. Given the choice of CRR or 3rd Track, which would people choose?

workextra wrote:That is correct hrfcarl. Mentioning the Pros' and Con's of both the CRR and the 3rd track will indeed gain support for the cheaper and easier 3rd track project. As the TheLastSay says, any rebuilding of the CRR would ruin the communities in which it will run through. This bi product should should pour more support onto the 3rd track and grade crossing elimination.
Am I right?
Let's please keep this on topic about building the 3rd track. I hope I answered the questions, anyone has on the CRR please PM me if you have other questions. I do not want to discuss it here because it's a sore subject and since it's not going to happen people tend to be offended by bringing it up.

Nuf said.

SirRay he was talking about two different projects. One was reopening the old Central Branch and the other was the terminal complex in Valley Stream.

TheLastSay wrote:SirRay he was talking about two different projects. One was reopening the old Central Branch and the other was the terminal complex in Valley Stream.

I kinda figured that, but the way this guy was described, I wasn't too sure they weren't linked in his mind. A grand Valley Stream terminal is such a bizarre idea (in fact, I think the current reconstruction of the VS station building from the ground up is wasteful, as there seemed to be nothing wrong with the old building).
Anyway, getting back to the Central Branch & the Mainline, I don't know if it's been mentioned before in this thread, and of course I could not find an on-line source, but there was a plan in the 1960s - well, there were lots of plans I admit, but specifically this one would have revived the Central Branch and made a loop sort of system using the Main line - trains travelling full one direction on say the Mainline toward NYC in the morning, returning empty via the Central Branch, and then reversing the pattern (full from NYC on the mainline, empty via the Central) at Evening - I'm sure there was a scanned brochure of the plan on some website, but where.

Artts Archives has a page or two dedicated to that brochure, but I don't have the link. One last note on the CRR though. I have a friend who lives just around the corner from the old ROW in Levittown. I see no sign that this RR line would divide the community, create blight, or anything of the such. The high tension power lines are more of a blight than anything else. And as far as eminant domain goes, the only private property that would be seized is that of LIPA. Anything else is county property, and no homes, no backyards, nothing of the sort would be taken.

No matter what happens though, I'm convinced that there needs to be at the VERY LEAST a bypass track around Mineola. As for 3rd track in its entirety, I see no reason to make it so that it doesnt have direct platform access. It's going to take a lot more work to ensure that it does not. None of the stations currently have island platforms, it's all 2 platforms on the sides of the ROW. 3rd track, AFAIK, is running to the south of the current ROW, so by default it's going to have access to every station. Does this mean trains HAVE to stop at all those stations, of course not. I just think it'd be shortsighted and a waste of money to rebuild stations just so that one of the tracks doesn't have access to platforms at Westbury and Carl Place.

Looking at the way Mineola is set up........that is going to be one heck of a challenge to put it through there.The Oyster Bay Switchoff is just one of the challenges.....I dont see how the Grade crossing can be eliminated.....the same thing with Willis Ave..then again,I am NOT an structual engineer.
The water table is very high there.......as it floods frequently during rains.

That is going to be a very interesting project to watch once it gets underway........I am trying to picture what the finished product is going to be like.

I blieve it's gonna' happen. If you notice the cut-outs in the recently built bridge on look westward from west end of platform, you can see the team track lining up through the cut-out and then through Nassau Tower. That team track has third rail.

Rob

I believe Willis Ave. was never slated for grade seperation in the LIRR Third Track project.

Why remove crossings? Many railroads have multiple track main lines with grade crossings. I don't think half the crossings could be seperated from the rails.

lirr415-Peter

There are 2 crossing plans.

Under plan 1-

Urban Av.- Closed.
School St.- Open.
Willis Av.- Not mentioned, probably kept open.
Main St.- Not mentioned, probably kept open.
New Hyde Park Rd- Underpass
South 12 St.- Closed, pedestrian overpass installed.
Covert Av.- Underpass

Under plan 2-

Urban Av.- Closed.
School St.- Open.
Willis Av.- Not mentioned, probably kept open.
Main St.- Not mentioned, probably kept open.
New Hyde Park Rd- Underpass
South 12 St.- Open.
Covert Av.- Open.

I want Option 1, for obvious reasons. School St. isn't eliminated because of truck traffic and clearance restrictions involved with underpasses.

Why are the Mineola ones remaining?