LIRR Labor Expenses

With fares set to increase on LIRR and Metro-North yet again next month, such that it will now cost $7.25 to travel from Penn Station to Jamaica (a distance of 10 miles), I think the time has come for the MTA to take a harder look at how it spends its money.

The overwhelming majority of LIRR’s expenses are for rank-and-file labor. And that’s the way I would expect it to be. Even with technology that becomes more advanced with each passing day, the railroad can’t function without lots of actual human beings coming to work every morning (or afternoon, or night.) And these people need to be paid.

But, I think we need to consider the possibility that LIRR may be spending too much on train service employees. Whenever someone has mentioned this possibility in railfan circles, the standard response has always been: “Well, the conductor’s in charge of the train!”. Fine, but what does being “in charge of the train” in 2008 actually entail? It definitely doesn’t involve making sure the correct cars get dropped at the correct sidings or walking a mile-long consist to repair a brake hose or a 70-pound knuckle, as a freight conductor is required to do. As far as I can tell, here are the duties that a LIRR conductor performs every day:

1) Punching tickets
2) Occasionally selling tickets
3) Opening and closing the doors
4) Assisting the engineer with the brake test by watching needles on a dial
5) Am I missing something?

The same way you wouldn’t pay $12 for a gallon of milk at the supermarket, it seems like a waste of money for the MTA’s railroads to be paying $32 per hour, plus healthcare, plus a generous pension, to people who spend nearly all of their day punching holes in paper.

The thing is, I think most of you realize this. Considering how angry this board gets when anyone asks what the hourly wage rates for train service positions are, I think most of you privately realize that the rates are unreasonably high, which is why so many members of this board fight to keep them a secret.

Comments?

Nobody is keeping wages a secret, but we do not discuss your salary do we ?? Why get in pissing match between people who earn more, those that earn less, those pro union, those against union etc.

Railworkers get paid not enough, because railroading is a lifestyle, not a job, no booze, no drugs, no family life.
When you are still taking shelter behind cape cunt the railroader heads to work, snow, rain, sleet, etc.
They work longer than anyone per day and miss most holidays and family events during their career.
90% of people here could not last having to deal with the mutants you call commuters.

In my opinion they earn every penny and should be paid combat pay on top of it.

You seriously understate the responsibilties of the job. And the qualifications needed to keep it.

I agree with Dutch that the hours, days off, weather conditions, etc.. have a lot to do with it, but they are far from the whole story.

You want to save money? Get rid of the consultants. Cut by over half the redundant management that has less time on the railroad and nowhere near as much railroad experience or moxie as the guys who are 'punching tickets'.

Finally, the same people that are asking for the fare raises are the ones who negotiate the contracts with the unions. The workers salary may go up, but they (MTA) lose MILLIONS in ill thought of plans or mis directed projects.

I don't expect you to know it, but there have been tons of 'give backs' in work rules, wage concessions, job security, etc... in all of the years I worked for the LIRR. Because all you see is the hourly rate going up, you assume that everything is smooth sailing.

Walk a mile in their moccasin before you assume the job is just 'punching tickets'.

BMC wrote:You seriously understate the responsibilties of the job. And the qualifications needed to keep it.

Then why don't you state them properly for all to see?

BMC wrote:You want to save money? Get rid of the consultants. Cut by over half the redundant management that has less time on the railroad and nowhere near as much railroad experience or moxie as the guys who are 'punching tickets'.

The amount of money that the LIRR spends on redundant management and consultants is nothing compared to what they spend on rank-and-file labor. That having been said, I completely agree that those items must be addressed too.

BMC wrote:Finally, the same people that are asking for the fare raises are the ones who negotiate the contracts with the unions.

Well, yes. They have to find a way to pay for the expensive wage and benefits packages that the unions demand.

BMC wrote:The workers salary may go up, but they (MTA) lose MILLIONS in ill thought of plans or mis directed projects.

Such as...?

Let's say that the MTA does in fact waste money on "misdirected projects." How does that make it OK for the MTA to also spend a ridiculous amount of money on train service salaries? It is not OK for the MTA, an organization kept afloat by an enormous amount of public money, to spend more money than is appropriate on any item, whether it's on ballpoint pens, CWR, or yes, train service salaries.

BMC wrote:I don't expect you to know it, but there have been tons of 'give backs' in work rules, wage concessions, job security, etc... in all of the years I worked for the LIRR.

You're telling me this job paid even more money and had even more job security than it does now? I'd like to know how that's possible.

BMC wrote:Walk a mile in their moccasin before you assume the job is just 'punching tickets'.

I'm waiting to hear what else it is.

Why don't you read the MTA budget first and read how little in %% the labor cost actually is.
It seems you are only trying to attack railworkers with statements not reflecting any knowledge of rail operations.

The MTA shares your feelings.

They would love to see less people on the trains now that so little cash fares are sold. In every contract in the past decade, the MTA has sought a 25% to 50% reduction in the number of train service employees. Their union took significantly LOWER wage increases to maintain their number of jobs.

This latest contract gave employees 10-1/2% raises over three years while the MTA dangled 19% raises with substantial workforce reductions. There are still 1100 conductors out there, but their earning power is half of what it was a two decades ago.

It is unfortunate that this wage concession by the union has driven all other crafts' wages down with them and has made it very difficult to attract skilled labor.

Just like what has been said by Dutch and BMC, train crews have to work all sorts of hours in all sort of conditions and be on time. Something that for some people is incredibly hard to do. Getting a 2-hour call in the middle of the night to go to your terminal and then somewhere out in the middle of nowhere. Like was said railroading is not a job, but a lifestyle that effects what you do even when you're not on duty.

Sunday night, wall street executive get smashed at a party wakes up with a killer headache on Monday to go to work 2 hours late and pass out in his office. No harm no foul? How would you like that same person to be your engineer or conductor on Monday morning?

Working holidays, nights, weekends, missing outings with friends and family, not knowing when you'll work or where until your at work and even then it's still subject to change, not something most people can live with.

And this is just the stuff you have to deal with to get to work, not even part of performing service. All the paperwork you have to do everyday, dealing with the public, the money you're liable for if in train service, being aware of your surroundings at all times, not opening the doors on the wrong side or over a bridge allowing unsuspecting passengers to fall to their death, working safely; and oh yeah dealing with the gruff that people give you because they think you have it easy and are overpaid.

I was a Yardmaster, hopefully the trainman that post here can enlighten you in more detail. I did not want to have somebody reply with "You were never one, so how can you tell me..." However, I still got that. Give it a day or two, I'm sure some will.

I did go to your profile and looked at your past posts. It does seem that you seem to have a slight problem with transportation employees in general, not just on the LIRR.

Yes, we are well paid, but I personally for a 1000 reasons think we earn every penny of it.

Since when is this considered "well paid," BMC?

The AVERAGE household income on Long Island is $94,351. According to FannieMae, you need an income of $124,000 to purchase the median home on Long Island.

Yes, maybe compared to day laborers we're well paid, but not compared with other union crafts like NYC plumbers ($40+/hour), stationary engineers ($52+/hour), crane operators ($67+/hour) and stage hands ($57/hour).

Sorry, I think those railroaders with crafts that require more than just showing up are not paid the wage of trained, reliable professionals.

Unfortunately some crafts hold down the earnings of others.

crane operators are very highly paid, you shouldn't compare against them.

56andahalf, you should see what is required of Engineers/Condrs/Train Dispatchers and any craft that utilizes the Book of Rules. Examinations of this are one of the toughest in the country, comparable to if not more difficult than the BAR exam attorneys take.

The workforce in NYC relies so much on transit, without it you're lost. Did you get a glimpse at what the commute would have been had Amtrak not settled contracts with the numerous amount of unions? Look at what happened when NYCT striked a few years ago during the holiday. Millions of dollars were lost each day the subways didn't run.

We cannot deny our economy is facing inflation. Just look at what the Fed is doing. Sure interest rates are being reduced but they aren't fooling anyone what lies ahead.

If it's within reason, I think the people in transportation should get paid however much they feel they should get paid. I want dependable, qualified people carrying my loved ones around. The safety of you and everyone else riding the trains are in the hands of trainmen.

So in a short sense, yes the fair hike can most definitely be attributed to inflation, but your government's main concern now is avoiding this country into slipping into a recession, disregarding the fear of inflation.

crane operators are very highly paid, you shouldn't compare against them.

Locomotive engineers' training is 4200 hours longer than crane operators', they are certified by the Federal Government and lose their job for traffic infractions.

You're right. Shouldn't compare them with crane operators.

How 'bout Yardmasters? Takes five years to be useful to the Company.

Dispatchers? Every one I know retired young with high blood pressure and other problems. Another job that takes five years to learn. Mess up and you're in the street.

Who can we compare these professionals with? Maybe Port Authority Cleaners? They make more than LIRR engineers.

56andahalf

Welcome to the Forum. I see you’re a newbie since January, maybe a lurker for a few years, whatever.

I read your initial post with interest. I think you have underestimated the importance of the conductors, engineers, track workers, signal maintainers and all the other public servants, (the human beings), that get your railroad up and out of the gate everyday.

Dropping off and picking up silent, compliant railcars and walking a refreshing mile along the track to cut them in and out could be a pleasure compared to dealing with thousands of “intelligent” patrons every day. The rail cars don’t argue with you, think too much or not enough, do drugs or get drunk or disrupt the passenger car environment by yakking and yelling into cell phones the whole trip.

Please don’t diminish the employee to just “people who spend nearly all of their day punching holes in paper.” Those people, more importantly than taking your coin and punching your ticket, are there for your safety and comfort. Don’t get me wrong, there are always going to be the times when the air conditioning or heat may not work in a car and a stopped train may take an inordinate amount of time to find out why they are stalled, but when there is a problem on the largest commuter railroad in the Nation, it is those “human beings” that will protect you, save your butt and get you home at the end of the day.

You don’t want to pay $32.00 an hour for a civil servant to get you to work and home, how much do you pay your neighborhood plumber to fix your toilet when it won’t flush? Had any electrical work done on your property lately? Need your car tuned up or God forbid towed into the garage? Rest assures they get more than $32.00 an hour, they’re paying into their 401K’s and providing medical benefits for their families too, and you and I are paying for it. It’s called the “cost of doing business.”

How much do we pay the police officer to sit in his or her car during the quiet times of their shift? You don’t question their pay when they are protecting your life, home and property as the next home invader is rattling your back door to get in. The railroad worker protects you with his or her knowledge of the rails and systems that keep the trains moving safely. They do their damndest to keep the stations clean and pick up after you. And if you fall ill on the train, they’re there to help you, to get you off to emergency services as soon as possible and perform first aid until help arrives. In an emergency the conductors and engineers are your lifeline. You can depend on them. True - like so many civil servants, their work may be hours of drudging boredom interrupted by moments of chaos and Hell, but it’s those moments of chaos and Hell that we pay them for. Always ready.

I don’t know what you do for a living 56 and a half, but I am sure your work is important; certainly it is important to your family and your loved ones. The work of the employees of the Long Island Railroad is important too, it is most important to every person who rides the railroad to work and home each day and for pleasure on holiday or the weekends. These men and women deserve the pay and benefits they get just as you do. They also deserve the protections their Unions and their contracts provide them. I hope you are protected by a Union and a contract; we all deserve a decent wage and stability in our jobs, something that’s pretty rare today in the private sector. Contracts and Unions do help.

As you contemplate $ .72 ½ cents a mile from Penn Station to Jamaica, think of the cost of oil and petroleum, think of the cost of war, think of the cost of crime and healthcare, think of the crooked bankers, Wall Streeters and government officials who impact your wallet, think of the two percent of the World’s population that controls ninety-six percent of the World’s wealth, you might find some others to direct your concerns toward and realize these railroad workers give you a pretty good return on your dollar in the here and now.

de Don n2qhvRMLI

DutchRailnut wrote:Why don't you read the MTA budget first and read how little in %% the labor cost actually is.

How little? Two-thirds of the LIRR's 2007 adopted budget, excluding depreciation, was for labor. If anyone knows where to find a more detailed breakdown by department, we can see how much of that was for train service employees.

DutchRailnut wrote:It seems you are only trying to attack railworkers with statements not reflecting any knowledge of rail operations.

I am trying to get this board to consider that maybe this railroad is being run much more expensively than is necessary.

LongIslandTool wrote:The MTA has sought a 25% to 50% reduction in the number of train service employees. Their union took significantly LOWER wage increases to maintain their number of jobs.

If the MTA were a private company, they would cut the jobs AND give the employees it kept the lower wage increases. Once your services are no longer needed, it's time to find a new job. That's how it works everywhere but in the fantasy land of transit unions.

LongIslandTool wrote:It is unfortunate that this wage concession by the union has driven all other crafts' wages down with them and has made it very difficult to attract skilled labor.

From all accounts I've seen on this board and elsewhere, the LIRR is flooded with far more than resumes than they can handle every month, in no small part due to the ridiculously high wages, benefits, and job security.

RearOfSignal wrote:Just like what has been said by Dutch and BMC, train crews have to work all sorts of hours in all sort of conditions and be on time.

If the LIRR conductors and A/Cs think they have it rough, they should try working for a freight road. They should try being on call 24/7 with no set days off, spending lots of time actually being outside in the conditions you mention instead of being inside a sheltered, heated/cooled M7, spending nights away from home, and actually performing manual labor far more strenuous than punching tickets.

RearOfSignal wrote:Sunday night, wall street executive get smashed at a party wakes up with a killer headache on Monday to go to work 2 hours late and pass out in his office. No harm no foul? How would you like that same person to be your engineer or conductor on Monday morning?

Do you really think train service is the only job you have to be sober to do and the rest of us can just show up for work hung over? Come on...

All the paperwork you have to do everyday

You mean the cash remittance form? How long does that actually take to complete?

dealing with the public

You think that's a requirement unique to train service? You should try working in retail sometime.

the money you're liable for if in train service

Better make sure there are no holes in your pocket.

being aware of your surroundings at all times

Oh please. Where do you think you are? Iraq?

not opening the doors on the wrong side or over a bridge allowing unsuspecting passengers to fall to their death

If you do that, you may be too stupid to hold any job.

working safely

What are some of the workplace hazards train service employees face on a daily basis?

and oh yeah dealing with the gruff that people give you because they think you have it easy and are overpaid.

I'm willing to bet that most people have no idea how much the person punching their ticket makes and would be blown away if they found out the hourly rate.

LongIslandTool wrote:Yes, maybe compared to day laborers we're well paid, but not compared with other union crafts like NYC plumbers ($40+/hour), stationary engineers ($52+/hour), crane operators ($67+/hour) and stage hands ($57/hour)

Guess what? Those jobs require tremendous skill and training, far more than it takes to punch train tickets. So yes, they're going to make more than you do.

tushykushy wrote:If it's within reason, I think the people in transportation should get paid however much they feel they should get paid.

That is so absurd, I'm not even going to touch it. I really should try proposing that policy to my boss when I go into work tomorrow morning.

tushykushy wrote:The safety of you and everyone else riding the trains are in the hands of trainmen.

Actually, it's in the hands of the locomotive engineers, whose salaries I think are reasonable. It's the people punching the tickets who I think are getting too much.

I think anybody who has the time to dissect every little bit of everyone's post and do what you just did is a blithering idiot.

You seem to know little about how a railroad operates. Let me remind you that once you "qualify" in MOST crafts, you are going to be on an "extra-list." That goes from Station Cleaners to Engineers. You are going to be working as directed based upon your senority. When you first start off you aren't going to be able to "own" a job. That means no set days off, getting called at any given time, working holidays, your birthday, everything you mentioned above, 56andahalf.

Conductors and Engineers must pass the same Book of Rules exam and as well as a Physical Characteristics exam. It's a mix of verbatim and written exams word for word.

When wages remain at a constant while inflation rises, wouldn't you expect a raise? I think anybody who works for the LIRR can admitt it is a job that is cherished, secure, and worth while. Like someone in the past mentioned here, the RR can make you grow old fast, loose your marriage, and friends. Tremendous sacrifices are made on everyone who works for the RR in assuring it's running.

I still think this person, who has little credibility is just trying to bait for another "spin zone" topic. Should be locked. This was talked about on numerous occasions.