Late Night Rail Service

Saying "cut management" in response to SEPTA's financial troubles is easy, satisfying, and wrong.

You could eliminate all the A-payroll, and SEPTA would still have a long-term deficit problem, so all you do by focusing on cutting Moore's salary or firing Richard Maloney is show you haven't read the budget.

The reason there isn't a 12:25 to Norristown is that the fare revenue you'd get from such a trip isn't nearly enough to cover the incremental costs of running the additional train: 2 crew members * 2.5 hours * possible OT premium * wage rate + payroll taxes + traction power + maintenance of equipment + ... = at least $400. Can you realistically say that train is gonna pick up 150 passengers, or even half that number?

I must have hit a nerve. My argument is not that they should just fire Rich Maloney and cut Faye Moore's salary and all of SEPTA's budget problems will be resolved. I would argue that expecting employees to contribute to their healthcare is also 'easy, satisfying, and wrong.' Point the finger at where the problem lie. SEPTA is a top heavy company, pure and simple. Now I know this can turn into a contentious debate, which it already has between SEPTA and the TWU. Ultimately, neither of the aforementioned solutions will balance SEPTA's books in the long term. My overall argument is that the company is mismanaged and top heavy. If there is anyone who disagrees with that, we'll just have to agree to disagree. SEPTA's financial woes are due to their operating and capital project money being grossly mismanaged. I'm not arguing that there is just a quick fix; but, I hope one can appreciate that this nationwide trend of simply asking the employees to pay more for healthcare, to accept no pay raise, or even a pay cut (which is what the TWU would be agreeing to by accepting SEPTA's current terms) so that the company can be more profitable is simply unacceptable and disgraceful. Maybe if SEPTA made the service more attractive to potential riders, having the majority of them riding more out of convenience than necessity, running later trains and subways, keeping stations lit overnight, have more police presence at Center City stations and subways overnight. As for my "12:25 Norristown example", yes I do think that on a Friday, Saturday, or Sunday night you would carry 150 people easily if people knew there was a train leaving Suburban Station that late, particularly on the WEEKEND as I cited in my post. The reason that the current 11:25 doesn't carry that many people, I argue, is because people know that they have to drive home, catch a cab, or even stay at a friend's home if they want to come into Center City to go clubbing. If people know that there is reliable, punctual, and consistent true late night service on public transportation I think they would prefer to spend $3 on a ticket from East Falls to Market East than spend $10 just to park somewhere downtown for a few hours and still have to pay a cover charge just for admission into a club. Furthermore, I think that downtown would be more willing to stay open a little bit later if people had a convenient mode of transportation to get down there and return home. If SEPTA would take realistic steps to be more efficient, I believe they would have more public support locally. They would have more people riding Push-Pull sets to Harrisburg to rally for dedicated funding than the abysmal turn-out they had earlier this year; they would have more people writing letters to their local politicians demanding more dedicated funding for public transit. SEPTA has potential (particularly now with gasoline hovering around $3/gallon), but it takes someone to steer the course, not a board of appointed directors who by and large don't even use the service themselves, or even an accountant who can't account for why Market Street west of 44th looks like a demilitiarised zone. I guess my solutions to SEPTA's problem aren't so "easy, satisfying,' and RIGHT. But someone has to say something, instead of the public accepting the "status quo." I don't know of any public transit agency that runs a profitable operation. Without some sort of government subsidy planes, trains, and buses don't move. And it's a pity because taxpayers accept the federal government building more and more highways infringing on already urban and suburban sprawl, instead on investing in and improving on PREEXISTING PUBLIC transit infrastructures. It really is a shame.

Matt,
I actually work with a gentleman who worked for SEPTA back around the late 80s/early 90s and who was chiefly involved in the decision to replace late night trains with night owl buses. And while I disagree with him wholly on the decision, he has told me numerous times that the reason was safety--he said their study concluded that people would feel safer on the street where they can be seen by traffic than in the stations. I, for one, disagree--for example, I feel far less safe waiting for a night owl bus on 2nd and Spring Garden at 2am after a night out in Northern Libs than I do waiting for the El on the platform, where there is a paid employee in whose view I can stand. But that's just me.

Anyhow, he says the primary issue was safety, and that the added bonuses of maintenance windows and cost cutting were ancillary benefits. Not that it matters much either way.

I agree though that at least the city transit rail lines should run until 3am on Friday/Saturday nights. They do it in D.C.--why not here? (While we're comparing ourselves to other cities, though, it's worth noting that last time I was in D.C. I had to take a cab from Dupont Circle to Union Station because the Metro doesn't start running until 7am on weekends. At least we have early morning service in Philly!)

At the very least we should have Fri/Sat night Subway service till 2am. The damn restaurants in Olde City are open that late, so if we take the subway down then we have to ride back on a overcrowded Stink Owl.

Not to mention they don't get that much maintenance time in. Last trains in are around 12:45, and first ones out are 5:15. Late night with 20 minute headways, they could run single track on the El, or BSL for that matter. SEPTA chooses not to. SEPTA doesent care about late night riders, they know they will always be there. Although if you're working twilight, its actually the best time to drive as there is no traffic on the road.

Another consideration is the weather. If its rainy/windy/cold/snow outside, with the night owls your stuck enduring on the streets. At least on the underground platforms you have shelter. I'd like to see Faye Moore wait for a night owl bus at 40th-Market at 2am when its raining and see how sh e likes it.

My sentiments exactly. If suburbanites knew there was a way home after 11:30pm on the weekends, they would take advantage of it. And, incidentally, Mrs. Moore uses the one car Bala Cynwyd trolley service (better known as the R6 Cynwyd local), which SEPTA has tried to bury numerous times. I know plenty of people who live near Wynnefield and Bala stations. They don't believe me when I tell them that a city division transpass is acceptable from those stops into Center City. They end up taking a much longer bus ride to 16th and JFK, or end up on the R5 at Overbrook Station, which is almost 2 miles down City Ave. If the service were marketed better, I am willing to bet that more people would use it. A 25 minute bus ride with stop lights vs. a 10 minute ride to Center City with no more than 3 stops. It's a no-brainer.

Mrs. Moore uses the one car Bala Cynwyd trolley service

Last I heard, she stopped riding it.

If suburbanites knew there was a way home after 11:30pm on the weekends

There still wouldn't be enough of them to make running rail into the wee hours worth while. What we could use is extended subway service to at least 2 am.
Other rail services that would be worthwhile:
R5 Paoli
R1 Airport (not for travellers, for workers) extend to 1:30AM last trip out
R6 Norristown: could use one more trip into the city

Bear in mind, most of the scant service is the product of the last round of service cuts 2 years ago which brought us things like 90 minute service on the R8. According to SEPTA, they can save themselves to prosperity.

If security is an issue I think Septa should install a camera-surveliance system in all of its subway/el stations. Maybe funding can come from Wasington (homeland security). Frankly, I don't always feel safe in some stations during the day and I know many other riders that feel the same way. I recently read the MTA signed a contract for such a system. If the MTA can secure that huge subway system there isn't any reason why Septa should do less for its riders.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:SEPTA did not cite crime as a reason for shutting down the subways in the owl hours (when they did so c.1990)--they said it was to facilitate cleaning and maintenance, but it was well understood that cost was an issue to. The crime issue (not that there was a serious crime issue) was probably a wash, since the crime moved to the stations to the streets.

When the crime is on the streets, it's the jurisdiction of the Police Dep't, not the Transit Police.

Isn't the fare system also a big impediment to overnight subway service? If the booths didn't need to be manned, would that make overnight service more appealing?

When the crime is on the streets, it's the jurisdiction of the Police Dep't, not the Transit Police.

Isn't the fare system also a big impediment to overnight subway service? If the booths didn't need to be manned, would that make overnight service more appealing?

Maybe, except now you lose the "manned" presence that makes people feel secure, unless you add a security guard.

Funny how PATCO doesen't have "security problems".

C'mon guys, we all know the real reason is money. SEPTA of course lies when some lady gets her purse snatched and uses that as the excuse to shut it down. Of course the fare collectors are too expensive to be there all night. I don't know the point of them anyway. All they do is collect the $2 cash fare or issue transfers. They don't make change, they don't give directions (useful ones), the don't sell "fare instruments". They're paid newspaper proof-readers.

whovian wrote:I must have hit a nerve. My argument is not that they should just fire Rich Maloney and cut Faye Moore's salary and all of SEPTA's budget problems will be resolved. I would argue that expecting employees to contribute to their healthcare is also 'easy, satisfying, and wrong.' Point the finger at where the problem lie. SEPTA is a top heavy company, pure and simple. Now I know this can turn into a contentious debate, which it already has between SEPTA and the TWU. Ultimately, neither of the aforementioned solutions will balance SEPTA's books in the long term. My overall argument is that the company is mismanaged and top heavy. If there is anyone who disagrees with that, we'll just have to agree to disagree. SEPTA's financial woes are due to their operating and capital project money being grossly mismanaged. I'm not arguing that there is just a quick fix; but, I hope one can appreciate that this nationwide trend of simply asking the employees to pay more for healthcare, to accept no pay raise, or even a pay cut (which is what the TWU would be agreeing to by accepting SEPTA's current terms) so that the company can be more profitable is simply unacceptable and disgraceful. Maybe if SEPTA made the service more attractive to potential riders, having the majority of them riding more out of convenience than necessity, running later trains and subways, keeping stations lit overnight, have more police presence at Center City stations and subways overnight. As for my "12:25 Norristown example", yes I do think that on a Friday, Saturday, or Sunday night you would carry 150 people easily if people knew there was a train leaving Suburban Station that late, particularly on the WEEKEND as I cited in my post. The reason that the current 11:25 doesn't carry that many people, I argue, is because people know that they have to drive home, catch a cab, or even stay at a friend's home if they want to come into Center City to go clubbing. If people know that there is reliable, punctual, and consistent true late night service on public transportation I think they would prefer to spend $3 on a ticket from East Falls to Market East than spend $10 just to park somewhere downtown for a few hours and still have to pay a cover charge just for admission into a club. Furthermore, I think that downtown would be more willing to stay open a little bit later if people had a convenient mode of transportation to get down there and return home. If SEPTA would take realistic steps to be more efficient, I believe they would have more public support locally. They would have more people riding Push-Pull sets to Harrisburg to rally for dedicated funding than the abysmal turn-out they had earlier this year; they would have more people writing letters to their local politicians demanding more dedicated funding for public transit. SEPTA has potential (particularly now with gasoline hovering around $3/gallon), but it takes someone to steer the course, not a board of appointed directors who by and large don't even use the service themselves, or even an accountant who can't account for why Market Street west of 44th looks like a demilitiarised zone. I guess my solutions to SEPTA's problem aren't so "easy, satisfying,' and RIGHT. But someone has to say something, instead of the public accepting the "status quo." I don't know of any public transit agency that runs a profitable operation. Without some sort of government subsidy planes, trains, and buses don't move. And it's a pity because taxpayers accept the federal government building more and more highways infringing on already urban and suburban sprawl, instead on investing in and improving on PREEXISTING PUBLIC transit infrastructures. It really is a shame.

Virtually ALL mass-transit systems are top-heavy in the management area because of the very heavy federal regulatory environment the systems exist in. Transit systems have to deal with Federal regulations in almost every aspect of operation from the physical plant, to how much service they must provide to every neighborhood in their service area. Add major "unfunded mandates" like ADA, and the Clean Air Act, plus the frightening new world of "Homeland Security". All of those regulations require some suit to help navigate through the maze, if they didn't, then Uncle Sam will take away their meager contributions to the agency.

When they accept Federal money, they have to play by Federal rules, all several million of them governing every tiny thing.

My argument remains the same. If SEPTA tried to make their operation more appealing they would surely do better with ridership and public opinion. You can't go wrong with late night service. With so many service and hopitality industry jobs, reverse commuters, bars and clubs in Center City, Manayunk, along the Main Line (those college kids love to drink, ride that R5 Paoli train between Villanova and Ardmore), I find it shortsighted that one would think there wouldn't be ridership to justify it. I am surely not suggesting their should be a 3:25am local to Norristown, or a 3:18 local to Fox Chase; but a 1:40 am R5 Paoli-Thorndale trip wouldn't hurt with a Glenside turn on the Reading side. I'm not unrealistic. I agree the BSL and the MFL should operate till a least 2am; but, I've seen first hand the amount of young people who travel in groups going into, and sometimes out of the City, to have a good time. Trouble is they either have to go home early or risk the last train of the night that leaves their station two and a half hours earlier than final call. As far as my comments about SEPTA being top heavy, I realize that virtually all transit agencies are top heavy. SEPTA seems to be pretty exceptional. Do you really need a line director, and assistant line director, a north side line director, associate north side line director, south side line director, I can go on and on believe me. Travel to Media station during the am rush hour. There you will see at least three "directors." All of them clear $80,000 easily, and not one can move a train. Travel to Suburban Station during pm rush, you will notice lots of people wearing red vests, and I'm not talking about the cleaning personnel. I'm talking station masters, I'm talking about PM North side line director, PM ASSOCIATE North side line director, Regional Rail Transportation MANAGERS, and that is just on the 1 and 2 track side. It's the same on the 3 and 4 track side. That's a lot of money walking around. When something happens (ie train breaks down, wires fall, power outage) those personnel DISAPPEAR. I hope no one is naive enough to believe that they are off to the rescue. Believe me, they are not. P.S. as far as Mrs. Moore and the R6 goes, believe me, she still rides, just not as often.

The reason given that the number of riders would not justify added trains contains false assumptions. You are assuming that the lack of number of riders causes no late night trains. You fail to provide sufficient proof however that the lack of late night riders is not caused by Septa's lack of service rather than vice versa. You are taking the result of something (lack of late riders) to be the cause. This simply is not the case. I guarantee you that if people knew that there were 2.00 am trains that you would see increased ridership. Suburbanites would much prefer to pay for a 3-4 dollar train than a 50 dollar taxi or hotel. The city and suburbs in Philadelphia have such a bad relationship that it is sick, and principally one of the reasons that I plan on staying in New York.

Would be nice if SEPTA actually made a attempt at operating somewhat efficiently besides axing employees. The front line employees are always the ones that get hit first of course. I've always been amused though that at 3am, or 1pm for that matter, every single light is turned on at every single El station. Do we need lights on at 1pm? And if the station is closed, do we need them on to rub in our faces that we're standing on the street waiting for a BUS?

For that matter, I feel safer on the platform, because at least there you're a bit isolated from the street element. What doesen't help is when a deranged street looney approaches the cashier, with no money of course, and the cashier just buzzes him in so he doesen't have to deal with it. Does the cashier alert transit police? F%$& NO! Let the riding public deal with it! That's why its not safe!!!!!!!

While lights may not amount to alot, its just an example of all the little things within SEPTA that shows they don't care about being efficient because they get their handout every year anyway. About the only attempt I've seen is the lowering of the pans on MU's over the weekend. And there are only like 100 street supervisors left, most have been reduced now that most issues are handled out of control. The ones who are left are there just to help in case of emergencies.

Maybe if Septa went bankrupt and a new agency was put in its place we would see some change.