Kicking Cars--is it Safe?

CN_Hogger wrote:
What in the world is a 'dutch drop"??

Did you understand his post buddy? The switch in use to make the drop is a trailing point move at the start of the drop. Then you try to beat the cars as you haul ass into another track with the power before the cars hit the side of your motors. Your in "DUTCH" if you dont make it.

Is there another name for this move?

GN 599 wrote:There is a roadswitcher in Bellingham that has an assigned rear brakeman, only full four man crew left on the BNSF in Washington and Oregon. Every thing else is three at the most unless you have a student of some sort.

That's better than what we have on our locals.


CSXT refers to these moves as "Flying Cars By", which is prohibitted.

In other words, a flying switch but at a trailing point switch instead of a facing point switch.

So on CSX that move is called a flying dutchmen? Ha Ha!!
I've heard a story of drop gone wrong once where a SD 40 ended up doing a fish tail.
<----- kinda ended up looking something like that.

One thing I've learned about flying cars is to always run the power to the main or the better of the two tracks. Another is to always test the switch before the move is to be made. Being in the middle of the move is no time to find out they've installed a point lock the previous day!

On CN, we call it a "Flying" or "Running" Switch. We are only allowed to do a flying/running switch if we have 3 crewmembers on the ground, and since our full crews consist of a Yard Foreman, Helper and Engineer, we can't do a running switch. On CN we also kick cars, and get on and off moving equipment(no faster than 4 MPH). I have to say, having kicked cars with both a full crew and beltpack, I prefer the Beltpack as I have direct control of the movement.

ENR3870 wrote:On CN, we call it a "Flying" or "Running" Switch. We are only allowed to do a flying/running switch if we have 3 crewmembers on the ground, and since our full crews consist of a Yard Foreman, Helper and Engineer, we can't do a running switch. On CN we also kick cars, and get on and off moving equipment(no faster than 4 MPH). I have to say, having kicked cars with both a full crew and beltpack, I prefer the Beltpack as I have direct control of the movement.

Yeah but you can only go 10 mph with a beltpack .

GN 599 wrote:


Yeah but you can only go 10 mph with a beltpack .

Heh, top speed on the Beltpack is 15 MPH. Which is max speed in the yard, and anywhere in Rule 105 territory.

We have 6.28, is 105 the same? I thought you guys used the GCOR like we do on the BNSF.

Good post there GA, you should have told everyone how much money it costs to have the class one boys come out and put the cars on the rail. Kicking cars becomes against the rules when productivity takes a back seat to....... when it becomes more feasible to pay overtime and put more fuel in the units then it does to have the cars rerailed per month they ban kicking cars. I did know how much the UP charged but ive forgotten. $100,000.00, $80's range maybe on average? Something like that. This happened to me when i was a third party switcher, less cars in the dirt, but it seamed like train handling kinda was kinda forgotten also. lol Every joint made was hard, fast, and dirty. Our boss was less then proud when he saw we hit the cars and just kept shoving. Is that your take on the matter of pushing and shoving?

Hi All,

Okay fellas, you have tossed in so many variables that we are confusing those that asked the question.

Kicking: The engine accelerates with a car, or string of cars, in front of it. The Brakeman uncouples the car or cars that is desired, and the engine slows down. The cars are switched to where they need to be, the switch is thrown after they pass, and the engine continues on.

Dutch Drop; The engine is pulling the car, or cars, and the brakeman uncouples the cars to be dropped off. The engine speeds up, passes the switch, and the switch is then thrown allowing the cars to enter the siding desired. The engine is now out of the way as well.

In both cases, there is a crewmember on the lead car operating the brakes on that car. Usually radio contact is maintained among all the crew members involved.

The other option is where there are two tracks and a pole is used from the engine to the car or cars on the adjoining track, and the engine pushes the pole and the cars on that track where they need to be.

Needless to say some of these operations are frowned upon, but that is open to further discussion. Comments anyone ??

Pennsy, your description of a Dutch Drop is the same as a flying switch. That is the way I have heard the term used, but it sounds like in some places it refers to a flying switch at a TRAILING point switch rather than a facing point one. Lingo varies from place to place and I think this is one of those cases where there is not a "right" and a "wrong", just different.

I can understand carriers outlawing a flying switch, although they are not extremely dangerous if done with care. But banning the kicking of cars boggles my mind. It is true that once in a while a drawbar can bypass and cause damage or even a derailment but that is not an everyday thing. Someone - Golden Arm maybe? - cited a production drop from 500 to 200 cars a shift. That is over 50% drop in efficiency! It sounds like we're going farther and farther afield in trying to eliminate problems. Like someone said in some post or other, if we limit all trains to 5 miles per hour, collisions can be eliminated altogether and derailments would be extremely minor.

Hi BR&P,

Interesting change in terminology, especially since the switch, turnout, does not move.

When steamers were used as helpers on Cajon Pass, it was common practice to place the helpers between the last freight car and the caboose. Santa Fe, and SP, did not want to damage their Cabeese. At the summit of Cajon Pass, there was a switch that rose up a slight hill. The steamers would uncouple from the last freight car, and one helper would shove, kick, the caboose up the slight hill. The Brakeman would apply the brakes on the caboose at the top of the hill, the switch would be thrown, and all of the helpers would escape. The Brakeman would then release the brakes on the Caboose, the switch would be thrown again, and the Caboose would coast back to the train and couple onto the last freight car. Hoses would be connected, air brakes checked and the train would continue on. The helpers would then be free to return down the Pass for the next helper duties. This would be repeated all day, and night, long. Common practice on Cajon Pass, at that time. Incidentally, Union Pacific got its nickname as Unlimited Power in such operations, usually no helpers and lots of head end power. It is my understanding that PRR with Horseshoe Curve were worked in a similar fashion.

GN 599 wrote:We have 6.28, is 105 the same? I thought you guys used the GCOR like we do on the BNSF.

We use Canadian Rail Operating Rules. In Rule 105 territory you must not exceed restricted speed(15 MPH), being able to stop short of equipment, a red flag betwen the rails, blue flags, and switches not properly lined.

My tongue-in-cheek mention above of running all trains at 5 MPH to avoid collisions obviously was absurd. But not too many years ago, the idea of NOT kicking cars would have been placed in the same category. With the volume of traffic that railroads used to handle in some places, kicking cars the only way you could survive.

I was a yardmaster at a meduim-sized flat-switching yard. We had a crew at each end, and while they did have other work such as servicing cabooses, switching the repair shop, and occasional firm work (customers), most of their time was spent switching and making up trains. Many, many shifts, I would come in to a full yard, the crews would switch hammer and tongs, and at the end of the shift the yard was still full. It was not unusual to hold a train out while the yard crew cleared a track for it to pull in to. If they had not been able to kick cars, the whole place would have come to a halt from gridlock.

In fact, that was exactly how the guys exerted a little pressure if needed. Once in a while there would be an attempt to eliminate early quits or something, and the crews would slow down. The logic was, there is NO signal in the rule book for "kick", there is nothing in the rules or union contract saying a kick exists. Therefore, the company can't force us to kick, and can't discipline us if we don't. Every car was shoved to a hitch. And in no time flat, the yard was plugged, customers were crying because they did not get their cars, the dispatcher was wild because trains were being held out of the yard blocking other tracks. Usually it was a very short time before things were adjusted and kicking resumed. But with today's volume, 50% reductions in output are acceptable, and not serving the customer is no longer the sin it used to be. (maybe THAT'S why traffic volumes are down).

Pennsy - that would have been a neat thing to see! And again, as you mention, it was a routine move made countless times. No doubt once in a while there was a problem, but in the long run it helped speed traffic on its way just a bit quicker.