K4 1361 Project Dead?

Further my March 18 and October 31. 2007 replies to this subject in the PRR forum:
Railfan&Railroads's February 2008 issue has a photo of 1361's boiler and frame, much as it looked when I saw it in 2006 on page 27. It was removed from the restoration shop into the Steamtown roundhouse on 12.05.2007.
The restoration work had been stopped in July and the owners (Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum) plans to return the unit to it's home. No date mentioned.
Hope continues to spring eternal.
Best regards,
Rodger

Some info from Trains Newswire...

I must preface this by saying an insanely large amount of taxpayer money has been spent on this project. Although I love trains, I think this thing should have been killed years ago...

Brooks

Railroaders Memorial Museum director Larry Salone's first timetable for completion of ex-Pennsylvania Railroad K-4s No. 1361 says the engine could be done within 18 months - or it could take twice that, the Altoona Mirror reported. Work won't resume right away on the project, which stalled last summer, but the museum will put pieces of the locomotive and largely finished tender on display in the Museum's Memorial Hall temporarily starting next month. It will be the first opportunity in a dozen years to view the locomotive in Altoona after its restoration began at Steamtown National Historic Site in Scranton, Penn.

Meanwhile, the museum will send the boiler out for reconstruction at a certified shop, which Salone expects will take nine to 14 months. The museum will also seek bids for construction of a quarter-roundhouse in the yard, a project that is expected to take three months. When those projects are complete, the museum will put together a crew to assemble the locomotive in the roundhouse.

Salone would like to start construction on the quarter-roundhouse in the fall. He said the museum has $2 million available for the project from a federal transportation enhancement grant. The museum has about $600,000 available for the K-4 from a 2006 state Redevelopment Assistance Capital Project grant. Salone estimates the restoration will cost up to $900,000 and that he'll need to get the additional money through fundraising.....

More at www.trains.com

Killing the K-4 project years ago would have been about as insane as the Politicians and Store keepers of the purse strings of the Project. It will probably come out down the road that mis-managing and pocket lining have been going on all along. I am from Pennsylvania and they have a long history of coruption, graft ,near sided Politicians much less regular people that becuase they are near the money , they seem to "borrow" a few bucks. The 1361 is a symbol to railfans around the world. A symbol of many men and women who worked for a huge piece of American Transportation History, The Pennsylvania Railroad. Before it entered into merger and in its best of times it was pure and simple America's largest Railroad in both size and capitol. For that matter, the Country's largest Company and owned huge blocks of stock in many other Railroads. Many of old PRR people still around would tell you that their biggest mistake was merging so late and instead should have bought the Union Pacific with pocket change years prior. Then we would have had a true East to West Railroad. In most of the 20th Century, if it moved by rail east of St.Louis, northern Mid West and Northeast of the Capitol, then at any one time it probably rode on the Tuscan Giant. Much more the 1361 is also a symbol of what once was the real Steamtown USA, Altoona PA. There, the PRR did not order Locomotives, she made her own. The 1361 was made in Altoona and should be a tribute to those who toiled for all of us. That town and the PRR helped build this Country. These are just a few but enough reasons why it was right to restore her again and it will be right to pick up the pieces and the mess and see through to her fire being lit again. She should be a living monument to our history and the people who built her. I for one but one of many would rather see money being spent to see her live and breeth than building another feel good park that nobody uses, or bike and back pack trails so that one can feel with nature. Tax Payers subsidize much more hogwash than a true piece of American and State History. I have read recently where the States Leaders wants to spend multi -millions on a STUDY to find out if taking part in a future National Rail program would be benificial to the State ? Now that wins the boobie prize. People your State was the National Rail System ....once. I suggest they start their STUDY on the 1361, but they must bring their brains, memory and a good thought process. She will teach them all they want to know about Railroading. While we still have the talent, lets give it one more try. Hummm sounds like the old way America use to do things.

It seems to me that putting the major components of 1361 on display disassembled would be a fascinating attraction and provide a compelling reason for people to donate to the museum.

MX

Should we rely on government to restore a locomotive? It's a ridiculous idea. In the UK a private group built a new one from scratch based on peoples donations, http://www.a1steam.com/. I bet if a group wanted to they could do it with a K4.

TRAINSFORBRAINS wrote:Should we rely on government to restore a locomotive? It's a ridiculous idea. In the UK a private group built a new one from scratch based on peoples donations, http://www.a1steam.com/. I bet if a group wanted to they could do it with a K4.

Dear God how many times does it have to be stated that "the government" had ZERO, NOTHING, ZIP, as in nothing, nothing at all, to do with the restoration of the 1361. It WAS and IS in the hands of a "group". The ONLY thing the government (aka Steamtown) had to do with the 1361 was provide a place for the "group" to work on it.

How hard is that for people to understand? Its been stated over and over and over.

RS

Well some people are stupid and need to be told .

Go over to http://www.rypn.org for information on the restoration of the LIRR G5s #39's Belpaire boiler. The story is very interesting, and Strasburg seems to have the "cure" in place. The current plan has the boiler extensively repaired and returned to the RMLI during the next year. There are no plans beyond that at this time.

Off of the dead topic, but the RFD TV channel aired an episode on Monday, Sept 8th about the 1361 shot in 1987 by Mark 1. It "should" re-air Saturday morning at 0900 EST.

Just returned from a trip to Altoona/Gallitzin and Strasburg. Did not get to Railroaders Museum nor Steam Town this trip; so I don't know whether 1361 is still at Steamtown or has been moved to Altoona. Does any one have "current" information on the status of 1361 as of spring 2009?
Thanks.
Best regards,
Rodger

Yes, the 1361 is still in the roundhouse at Steamtown, the tender is in front of the locomotive, and the other parts are in railroad cars stored outdoors, waiting for shipment back to Altoona. I was just there this past Sunday June 14th. I'm working on Project 565 , for that information check out the thread on Project 565.

Len.

The bride (nee railfan widow) and I recently returned from a visit to Gallitzin/Altoona and Strasburg in Pennsylvania. After two nights at the Tunnel Inn, the bride has begun to show "some" apprecition of train watching, especially in the western part of the state. The other day I pulled out a VHS of Conrail Helpers at Horseshoe Curve and she actually watched AND enjoyed it. It gave her some insite into the NS helpers we saw at Gallitzin. Pushing my luck, I also pulled out a VHS of 1361's removal from the Curve and subsequent "rebuilding" and run up to and back from Bellefonte.
Her question to me...for which I had no answer: "What went wrong with 1361 after it was rebuilt in '87"?
Appreciate your letting both of us know, "What went wrong with 1361 after it was rebuilt in '87"?
Thanks
Rodger...and the bride, no longer a railfan widow...well for while anyway

This bothers me terribly; not that the K4s is stalled in reconstruction, but that the topic is considered "taboo" in certain circles. I never got to see her run after the return from the dead, and that was my own damned fault. From what I've read, the first restoration was a matter of rolling the dice, something like launching the "Challenger", with a boiler explosion only minimally avoided. Now she is in parts and pieces, and I fear for those items being scattered or destroyed as scrap by well meaning individuals.

Those who have been following the rebuilding of G5s #39 at Strasburg, has seen what a competent group of engineers can do with the technology and will (and cash) to move forward. The Oyster Bay Rail Road Museum has $500,000 in grant funding towards rebuilding G5s #35 as well. These are entirely separate efforts, so don't suggest combining them. We should see a live G5s in a few years, assuming funding continues to come forward.

Is there a plan or serious effort to re-rail the K4s project? Where does it stand today? Leaving this locomotive as parts display would be criminal in my opinion. Without "stoking the fires of righteous rage", where does the K4s project stand in 2009? People who know facts need only respond. I don't want to hear rumors.

Having worked on the K4 in 2001, the 86-87 restoration was found to have been incomplete. With testing on the backhead, it was found to be extremely thin and dangerous to fire the engine--it was commented that it was a "miracle that it didn't explode and kill people."

To address the corruption comments, there did appear to be some "dishonesty" by a contractor on the project as well as an advisor in the Scranton area. On top of that, a lot of work needed to be removed/redone due to inappropriate repairs having been made.

Due to a change in the day-to-day operations of the Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum, there has been little progress made in the continued restoration of the K4. The restauranteers in charge of the museum have had difficulty running restaurants in the Altoona area, let alone putting together a plan to get the rebuilt tender and boiler on frame (along with a gondola full of parts) back from Scranton.

I don't think the project is dead, but it is definitely on life support. Oh, this project was funded both by donations to the ARMM and by the Commonwealth of Pennslvania (taxpayers) under the guidance of Representative Geist.

In Britain, the fan magazines, "Railway Heritage" and Steam Railway", and others, head up fund raising efforts to rebuild specific locomotives either from scratch or from remains of partially scrapped locos. I'm fairly certain a movement like this, chartered, and in business to fund the complete and safe restoration of 1361 exclusively, would be well met. It would have to be headed by somebody like Ross Rowland or Jerry Jacobsen, or perhaps the Strasburg board. These people have th essential knowledge to know what must be done and how to do it. Get a dollar figure and move the whole locomotive to Strasburg Shops. Fund it and get the job done. To those who argue that there is no place to run the K4s, I would say, and pardon the paraphrase, "If you build it, it will run". After all, we are talking about one of the most cherished locomotive designs to ever hit the rails. This is not just another locomotive. It is an icon of steam railroading in America. Write off the losses from previous attempts and simply get the job finished. She deserves more than to be an exhibit of parts strewn around the Steamtown park.