Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

  by Otto Vondrak
 
Are any of the M-8 proposals on-line?

-otto-

  by JayMan
 
Dutch posted the proposals from Bombardier for the M7-based M8:

http://64.78.30.219/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1614
http://64.78.30.219/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3432

There were 4 proposals, all had issues, and CDOT chose option C. I don't particularly care for the proposed design. Despite the high hp per triplet the unpowered middle car would add undue maintenance woes. Since the funding is not secure (CT legislature has yet to vote and NY has yet to sign on), and the cars have to go out for bids, another manufacturer may cook up a better design. Maybe an entirely new design, not based on the M7, is what's called for.

  by KFRG
 
I agree, option C would be a poor choice.
"If it ain't broke don't fix it" as the saying goes, the M-8 should be based off of the current Cosmopolitan cars, with the Bombardier body.

-Tom

  by Nasadowsk
 
<i>I agree, option C would be a poor choice. </i>

Why? Plenty of EMUs elsewhere in the world work like this just fine.

<i>"If it ain't broke don't fix it" as the saying goes, the M-8 should be based off of the current Cosmopolitan cars, with the Bombardier body. </i>

Forget it. The current propulsion system is a disaster, and in any case, the cars would be far too heavy.

Even the existing proposal is gonna be a challange to get working decently. I'll be surprised if the third rail performance of them is any better than the existing cars, and I'd place my bets on it being as bad, or worse. They'll have '1000' HP, but there's no way they'll make that much in DC mode, as the M-7s have shown. Rationally, assume a pair of M-7s at 700hp a piece, and 375,000 lbs, that works out to 7.4 HP per ton, or slightly more than the ACMUs. In short, they'll likely not be able to hit 80mph on DC mode. Even in AC mode, they'll only have about 10HP per ton, so they're not gonna be really fast anyway.

With every car powered, assume 150,000 lbs per car, and about 700hp max in DC, and maybe 1000 - 1200 in AC. And that's being generous, and assumiong all cars functioning. tHe HP:ton is better, but the overal power consumption will be much higher.

Or, go the other way, and assume a max weight of 100,000lbs per car (likely impossible under FRA regulations). Going again with the same 700 / 1000 HP numbers, that yields 14hp per ton in DC, 20 in AC, which is significantly better than today's stuff (assuming all cars powered and functioning). You'd be able to chop the CT portion's schedules a bit with that much. Drop down to 80,000lbs per car, you get 17.5/25, which could likely allow a major schedule improvement - imagine equipment that could outperform an Arrow III by a bit. Keep dreaming - it's impossible under existing regulations.

Don't expect the M-8s to be any faster than the current stuff, and they'll probbably ride just as bad, too. They'll use more power though, so your fares will go even higher...

  by KFRG
 
Why? Plenty of EMUs elsewhere in the world work like this just fine.
This is not elsewhere in the world, this is New York. The Cosmo setup has been proven for over 30-years.
Forget it. The current propulsion system is a disaster, and in any case, the cars would be far too heavy.


How exactly is the M7 propulsion a disaster? The output tractive effort seems reasonable, and the car's have been designed with a modern AC system. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out why choice C would be a poor choice in the long run, think about it. I only ask because my knowledge is based off of people who actually work on/with these things, and my basic knowledge of electricity, and is thus limited. You seem to have some strong opinions for someone who does not work in the railroad industry.

-Tom

  by ANDY117
 
What are those couplers called? Pin and Cup?

  by DutchRailnut
 
The M1/M3 couplers are N2a couplers.
The M-7 ones I have not found official name yet.

  by ANDY117
 
NOw do those couplers make both air and electrical connections? or are they solely for keeping cars together?

  by DutchRailnut
 
The automatic couplers connect mechanicaly, they have an air connection fot combined Mainreservoir/Brakepipe and have an electrical head that connects all low voltage functions like Battery/ door controll/PA/brake information/propulsion controll.
all connections are 32 volt or lower, the airhose under the coupler is used for emergency towing only
http://community.webshots.com/photo/130 ... 9538WKgfUQ
to left of car you see a compromise coupler for connecting M1/3 to M7's for emergency towing.

  by roee
 
DutchRailnut wrote: to left of car you see a compromise coupler for connecting M1/3 to M7's for emergency towing.
Does the compromise coupler slot into the M7's coupler to convert it, or is that some kind of swing out thing? And wow, that sure is a itty bitty snow plow.