How profitable could Guilford/Pan Am be?

Despite the many criticisms of Guilford in their current state, just how profitable could they be under different management? I hear the rumors about how much business they've shrugged off, and how poorly maintained their facilities are. I'm not from New England, nor have I ever been there to see Guilford operate - I only know what I read from railfans. But despite a supposedly dieing rail industry, I would think Guilford should be raking in the money - if it were managed effectively (like P&W?). They have access to some of the largest markets, and the one of the few western gateways. I know why they got rid of D&H, but I see that as a big mistake nowadays. It simply slows their shipments and doesn't give them the competitive edge with NS/CP that single-line CSX has into New England.
Of course this is speculation, but had they kept D&H and not driven away all the business, they could of had enough money to buy the Southern Tier during the Conrail split - it's really an outcast line that NS and CSX could have done without, but it would have substantially helped a railroad such as Guilford. It just seems to me that despite MEC and B&M's struggles in the 1970s, a combined system today (post Staggers Act) should be highly competitive and profitable.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

rrfoose wrote:Despite the many criticisms of Guilford in their current state, just how profitable could they be under different management? I hear the rumors about how much business they've shrugged off, and how poorly maintained their facilities are. I'm not from New England, nor have I ever been there to see Guilford operate - I only know what I read from railfans. But despite a supposedly dieing rail industry, I would think Guilford should be raking in the money - if it were managed effectively (like P&W?). They have access to some of the largest markets, and the one of the few western gateways. I know why they got rid of D&H, but I see that as a big mistake nowadays. It simply slows their shipments and doesn't give them the competitive edge with NS/CP that single-line CSX has into New England.
Of course this is speculation, but had they kept D&H and not driven away all the business, they could of had enough money to buy the Southern Tier during the Conrail split - it's really an outcast line that NS and CSX could have done without, but it would have substantially helped a railroad such as Guilford. It just seems to me that despite MEC and B&M's struggles in the 1970s, a combined system today (post Staggers Act) should be highly competitive and profitable.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Interesting you mention the Southern Tier. They of course had that when they had the D&H. When they acquired the D&H, I recall, there was talk that they were planning to expand all the way west to Chicago over the NKP.

cpf354 wrote:Interesting you mention the Southern Tier. They of course had that when they had the D&H. When they acquired the D&H, I recall, there was talk that they were planning to expand all the way west to Chicago over the NKP.

Yes, I heard that when NS wanted to acquire Conrail whole, they would be forced to sell the NKP trackage between Buffalo and Chicago to Guilford. However, NS wasn't able to seal the deal and thus Guilford lost out too.
The G only had haulage rights to Buffalo over the Tier, correct? I don't believe they had access to any of the local industries.

PanAm Railways (Guilford) makes a lot of money.Especially in land redevelopement such as "NORTH POINT" in the old Somerville yards.
Skull

rrfoose wrote:

cpf354 wrote:Interesting you mention the Southern Tier. They of course had that when they had the D&H. When they acquired the D&H, I recall, there was talk that they were planning to expand all the way west to Chicago over the NKP.

Yes, I heard that when NS wanted to acquire Conrail whole, they would be forced to sell the NKP trackage between Buffalo and Chicago to Guilford. However, NS wasn't able to seal the deal and thus Guilford lost out too.
The G only had haulage rights to Buffalo over the Tier, correct? I don't believe they had access to any of the local industries.

Yes, I believe that was the case, although it may have been trackage rights rather than haulage. It was the only way for them to have a non-Conrail connection and that's why D&H got the rights after Conrail was formed. Didn't do them much good though. I think Guilford only had to pay 500,000 dollars or so for the railroad back in '84, and then it went bankrupt and had to muddle along under state supervision with a designated operator (NYSW) until CP purchased it.

Skullitor wrote:PanAm Railways (Guilford) makes a lot of money.Especially in land redevelopement such as "NORTH POINT" in the old Somerville yards.
Skull

Northpoint is having troubles though, even though Pan Am dismisses concerns over legal battles hurting condo sales there. Article today about it in the Boston Herald.
http://business.bostonherald.com/busine ... id=1009873

Guilford needs to get into bigger markets to really turn out a profit....lets put it this way, they will never be the FEC.

lakeshoredave wrote:Guilford needs to get into bigger markets to really turn out a profit....lets put it this way, they will never be the FEC.

I still think they made a huge mistake by discarding D&H. Today they could have direct access to Buffalo, and if they owned the Tier, then they would most certainly be NS' streamlined funnel for traffic into and out of New England/Boston...and possibly be able to compete with CSX.

Getting to Buffalo really does nothing for the ST these days as they already connect (albeit via CPRS haulage) with the NS at Mechanicville. Back in the Conrail days, it made sense because that (and Pot yard) was the closest possible NS connection, but now they connect with NS, CSXT and CPRS all at the West end of the former B&M. The reason nobody has ever done too well running the Southern Tier is that it's hilly, curvy and doesn't have much on-line business, which makes it less than a lucrative piece of railroad.

There is a lot of business to be had, but they don't go after it. You need to cater to new markets, but they are so thickheaded they wouldn't know a customer from a hole in the ground. Paper, Coal and the Pigs is all they care about.

>>Paper, Coal and the Pigs is all they care about.

I doubt that they care about those, either. PanAm policy becomes crystal clear if you view them as a real estate developer who is obligated by law to provide railroad service.

PBM

ferroequinarchaeologist wrote:>>Paper, Coal and the Pigs is all they care about.

I doubt that they care about those, either. PanAm policy becomes crystal clear if you view them as a real estate developer who is obligated by law to provide railroad service.

PBM

Not really. They get something like $500,000 everytime they plop 90 cars of coal at the PSNH. Crews are taken off other jobs to move coal trains everyday. Even this company cares about that type of cash.

newpylong wrote:

ferroequinarchaeologist wrote:>>Paper, Coal and the Pigs is all they care about.

I doubt that they care about those, either. PanAm policy becomes crystal clear if you view them as a real estate developer who is obligated by law to provide railroad service.

PBM

Not really. They get something like $500,000 everytime they plop 90 cars of coal at the PSNH. Crews are taken off other jobs to move coal trains everyday. Even this company cares about that type of cash.

I think thats WAY OVER.I seriously dought they get a half a million dollars for one coal train.
Skull

roberttosh wrote:Getting to Buffalo really does nothing for the ST these days as they already connect (albeit via CPRS haulage) with the NS at Mechanicville. Back in the Conrail days, it made sense because that (and Pot yard) was the closest possible NS connection, but now they connect with NS, CSXT and CPRS all at the West end of the former B&M. The reason nobody has ever done too well running the Southern Tier is that it's hilly, curvy and doesn't have much on-line business, which makes it less than a lucrative piece of railroad.

True, but if they owned D&H, they'd have control of all non-CSX traffic into and out of New England (traveling to points in the U.S. - not Canada via NECR or MM&A). The "Green Mountain Gateway" of VRS and CPR wouldn't exist, and thus NECR and P&W wouldn't be quite as strong, so most of their interchange traffic would come via Guilford. And the longer haul to Buffalo just racks up more miles and more money for them.
Also, I believe there is descent online business between Hornell and Binghamton. East Bing and West of Hornell though, the line is fairly dead.

rrfoose wrote:

roberttosh wrote:Getting to Buffalo really does nothing for the ST these days as they already connect (albeit via CPRS haulage) with the NS at Mechanicville. Back in the Conrail days, it made sense because that (and Pot yard) was the closest possible NS connection, but now they connect with NS, CSXT and CPRS all at the West end of the former B&M. The reason nobody has ever done too well running the Southern Tier is that it's hilly, curvy and doesn't have much on-line business, which makes it less than a lucrative piece of railroad.

True, but if they owned D&H, they'd have control of all non-CSX traffic into and out of New England (traveling to points in the U.S. - not Canada via NECR or MM&A). The "Green Mountain Gateway" of VRS and CPR wouldn't exist, and thus NECR and P&W wouldn't be quite as strong, so most of their interchange traffic would come via Guilford. And the longer haul to Buffalo just racks up more miles and more money for them.
Also, I believe there is descent online business between Hornell and Binghamton. East Bing and West of Hornell though, the line is fairly dead.

The D&H is ancient history to them now. CP has done a good job with it, even though it's been a marginal operation for them. The Conrail split changed the big picture a lot. Guilford prior to that had even gone as far as routing the bulk of their traffic, and almost all of the paper loads, via Worcester to Selkirk and Conrail. NS's influence has shaped the current situation dramatically. I think Pan Am will always be what it is now, a regional east of the Hudson River that primarily connects with CSX and NS. I also don't think it's entirely fair to say they ignore new business. There's a new C&D facility about to open at Ayer that will provide traffic, and the north end of the Madison Branch was re-opened recently and a customer is on-line there that receives carloads of pulp from a nearby paper mill.