Historical Discussion

JeffK wrote:
There were also stories that scrap steel from the Delaware Avenue line was sold to the Empire of Japan just before WWII, so no doubt some of the metal was redelivered in another form ...

Those stories are true---Japan's desire to get that scrap metal was one of the reasons the structure was torn down so rapidly.

Ironically, that's happening again today with China.

Much as I don't like to see china gain an advantage on us in any way, at least they haven't started conquering their neighbors like Korea or Vietnam... Yet.

On another note, my first love of trains is electric railroads with MU's, so although I've only ever visited SEPTA once at 30th to board a metroliner to manhattan, I enjoyed watching MU's come and go on the upper level and the ones surrounding my train on the lower level.

walt wrote:Bob: Thanks- I wondered what Rockhill did. I used to "day dream" about the National Capital Trolley Museum acquiring a Bullet and doing what Rockhill did ( this is probably no more than a day dream) so that I could learn to operate one.

Jeff- Your picture is of No 116--- one of the coach versions. There were also deluxe versions which had a lounge section in the rear ( Nos 120-129). It was the deluxe cars which LVT acquired and made them their 1000 class Liberty Bell Limited cars. No. 116 wound up on the Crandic ( Cedar Rapids & Iowa City RR) system.

What was the LVT? I am guessing Lehigh Valley Transportation?

capuzfu wrote:What was the LVT? I am guessing Lehigh Valley Transportation?

Lehigh Valley Transit. It ran from the end of the P&W in Norristown up to the Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton area. That's why the P&W tracks end in mid-air today. Until the Norristown Transit Center was built the P&W went one block further to a station on the second floor of a building, where you can still see evidence today. The LVT tracks continued on, going to ground level on the rise a few blocks north of the P&W terminus. There's a lot more information at http://www.phillytrolley.org/liberty.html

Service ended without warning in 1951. The morning after LVT shut down, unknowing riders were waiting at stations for cars that would never run again.

There's still quite a bit of the ROW intact, especially in the North Wales area.

The Liberty Bell Route of LVT is probably the main reason why the P&W exists today ( albeit in a much slower form as SEPTA's Route 100). P&W's original route to Strafford never had adequate ridership, and by 1912 it had become obvious that to survive, the P&W had to go somewhere else. That somewhere else was Norristown when the LVT decided to re locate and upgrade its Liberty Bell Route which before 1912 ran between Allentown and Chestnut Hill.The Norristown extension was built for the purpose of providing a connection with the LVT. LVT ran through cars between Allentown and 69th Street until 1949 when it cut its service back to Norristown. As indicated, it quit for good in 1951. At that time, there was some talk of extending the P&W to Lansdale or North Wales, but the Norristown city fathers quickly squelched that proposal because they wanted the bridge over Main Street ( at the location of the former second story P&W Norristown Terminus) torn down----- which it was---- rather quickly---- follwing the end of LVT service.

Question about the SEPTA Regional Railroad division. How much of the division is actualy SEPTA property? The R7 is the Amtrak NEC to Trenton, isn't it? Some time ago there was disussion of a Schuykill Valley Metro that would be run Norristown and then to Reading via the Norfolk Southern line, any real progress ever going to occur there if SEPTA does not own it?

Most of the tracks that the RRD runs on is SEPTA trackage. The Paoli, Trenton, and Wilmington lines are all Amtrak owned and SEPTA pays for trackage and propulsion power from Amtrak.

SEPTA owns some trackage that the freight railroads use and pay SEPTA for that. SEPTA has some leverage with the freight railroads because of this, and it's very common for commuter railroads to run on freight railroad trackage and own very little of the fixed plant.

Here's the reason why commuter rail isn't being pursued: it's labor intensive and the cost structure means high fares which drives away ridership.

Here's the problem with transit-style operations: freight railroads don't like high level platforms, and a level of service with 20 minute headways prevents much freight on the same tracks.

Isn't W. Trenton owned by CSX?

All I know is that it's SEPTA's tracks from Jenkintown to Neshaminy Falls, where it joins the CSX tracks.

CSX owns from CP Wood --> north. So yes the ROW at W. Trenton is owned by CSX.

And now septa service on the west trenton will be single tracked north of neshanminy falls. (HORAAAAAA)

Does anyone know a place on the internet or a book to read that explains the PRR and RDG combining into Penn Central, and the into Conrails, and finally into Septa. I would also like to read about the other systems such as MTA, MARC, VRE, MBTA, etc.

walt wrote:

One of One-Sixty wrote:It is my understanding that back when the EL aka the Market-Frankford line aka Blue Line was first introduced that it either did not go underground till either right before or after it cross the SureKill (Schukyll) River.

Does anybody havae any info or pics, as I thought I remember seeing pics of it running at 30th above ground and not underground.

Also what was the name of the tranist company that owned it back then?

Until 1955-56, the MFSE was elevated from 69th Street to about 24th street. There was a 32nd Street Station, after which it crossed the river on a bridge which was parallel to the Market Street Bridge, then went underground at about 24th Street. The subway-surface cars turned off Market at 32nd Street, then, as the "El" reached ground level, ran on tracks outside of the "El" into the subway using the same portal. There was a subway-surface car station on the incline leading to the portal at about 24th Street. The 19th Street station was the first underground subway-surface station, while the first underground "El" station was 15th Street.

In 1955 the Market Street subway was extended into its present configuration with the trains rising to the surface just prior to the 46th Street Station, with the trolleys also exiting as they do now.

The original operator of the MFSE and the subway surface cars was the Philadelphia Rapid Transit Company ( PRT) which became the Philadelphia Transportation Company (PTC) in 1940. SEPTA took over the PTC in 1968.
The Portion between 69th Street and Front Street was built by the PRT, while the portion from Front Street to Frankford was built by the City of Philadelphia. There was once a PRT built section running south over Delaware Ave to about South Street, but this section was abandoned and torn down in the late 1930's.

for many years "trains, trolleys, and transit" by gerry williams was my SEPTA bible, and still is (not as much though). It is a great buy, and explains every line step by step and SEPTA's history step by step. it is 8 years out of date but still good.