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  • Hiawatha Service: Ending Monthly Passes

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1634900  by eolesen
 
Lots of press from WI-DOT and Amtrak about releasing a new ten ride pass about a month ago, but now reality has set it - they eliminated the monthly... and now it's more expensive for regular commuters...

https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/am ... ride-fairs



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 #1635280  by ryanwc
 
WI-DOT and/or Amtrak compromised - from $400 to $800 to $625/$650 (Milwaukee / Sturtevant to Chicago).
>https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/am ... -pass-back

I think this is the money quote:
>The 8:05 a.m. train leaving Milwaukee's Intermodal Station was packed. A lot of folks were in business clothes with backpacks and briefcases.

>For Windsor, who got on at Sturtevant, the price decrease to $625/month still isn't enough.

In other words, certain commuter trains are actually close to full, and Amtrak doesn't want to sell out to people paying an average of $10/trip when they can get $25. So they'll compromise and charge $15 or so. Or if you don't commute 5 days/week, then the 10-pass is still a decent bargain, and single rides can be cheap if you don't travel at rush hour.
 #1635287  by eolesen
 
I'm just amazed that anyone would pay that much a month for commuting.

The monthly from Kenosha on Metra is "only" $275, and Sturtevant to Kenosha is only 12 miles...
 #1635324  by John_Perkowski
 
eolesen wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 12:04 am I'm just amazed that anyone would pay that much a month for commuting.

The monthly from Kenosha on Metra is "only" $275, and Sturtevant to Kenosha is only 12 miles...
Let’s do some math.

The 2024 IRS mileage rate is $0.67.
12 miles one way.
One round trip a day.
24 miles X .67 is $16.00 a day.
20 days a month.
Ching Ching! The cost for the commute by auto is $320 a month.
The pass is cheaper, even though there’s a real cash outlay.
 #1635327  by eolesen
 
I don't know that I'd be using the IRS reimbursement rate as a justifier, since it reflects ownership cost (depreciation and insurance) in addition to gas.

For most people, their car payment and insurance is going to be considered as a sunk cost. It's costing them the same for their car payment and insurance whether it's moving or not.

The only incremental cost for that 24 mile drive would be gas, which right now is about $3 in Southern Wisconsin... and then a fixed cost for parking at Kenosha.

Gas is going to be closer to $3 a day or $60 per month, plus $60 for the monthly parking pass at Kenosha.

Total actual out of pocket is $395... which is still considerably cheaper than Amtrak.
 #1635331  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Olesen, you do have a point within your immediate that vehicle costs such as depreciation, interest (whether actual or imputed), insurance, tags, and whatever are fixed, and are there so long as anyone has made the choice to own such.

In the case of my '18 buggy with 45500 on the clock, those costs are $2.29/mi, so the 2024 IRS Standard Mileage Rate just begins to scratch the surface if the intent is to allow a taxpayer to deduct the fully allocated cost, and otherwise unreimbursed, of operating a vehicle.

Finally, I think that maintenance is just as much a variable cost as is fuel. In the case of mine, where I allocate $.24mi, there is a deficit at present of $389.42 (I suppose it could be less; but I'm "not exactly" a do-it-yourselfer in this life and no one other than the dealer has put a wrench anywhere near it).
 #1635333  by ryanwc
 
If you assume people would attribute some of the other costs to their commute, someone might decide it was economical, if they lived in Sturtevant.

But Sturtevant is tiny, the stop existing mostly for people in Racine, who probably have to drive to Sturtevant anyway.
 #1635340  by Tadman
 
John_Perkowski wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:44 pm
Ching Ching! The cost for the commute by auto is $320 a month.
This doesn't take into account the property tax savings. I have never researched WI property taxes, but Indiana's are much lower than Illinios. I have friends in Chicago suburbs that pay the price of a small car every year in property taxes. Can you imagine finding a new Toyota Camry in your garage every year for free? Makes that monthly commuter train bill a lot more palatable.

I'm sure Mr. Norman has a few neighbors in the larger houses of his area that wouldn't mind a move to Kenosha or Valpo.
 #1635359  by Microbrewcity
 
Tadman wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:08 pm
John_Perkowski wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:44 pm
Ching Ching! The cost for the commute by auto is $320 a month.
This doesn't take into account the property tax savings. I have never researched WI property taxes, but Indiana's are much lower than Illinios. I have friends in Chicago suburbs that pay the price of a small car every year in property taxes. Can you imagine finding a new Toyota Camry in your garage every year for free? Makes that monthly commuter train bill a lot more palatable.

I'm sure Mr. Norman has a few neighbors in the larger houses of his area that wouldn't mind a move to Kenosha or Valpo.

I don’t know Kenosha but in Milwaukee I think the median tax bill is about $4k/ yr. Not sure how that compares to Illinois or Indiana.
 #1635370  by west point
 
John_Perkowski wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:44 pm
eolesen wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 12:04 am I'm just amazed that anyone would pay that much a month for commuting.

The monthly from Kenosha on Metra is "only" $275, and Sturtevant to Kenosha is only 12 miles...
Let’s do some math.

The 2024 IRS mileage rate is $0.67.
12 miles one way.
One round trip a day.
24 miles X .67 is $16.00 a day.
20 days a month.
Ching Ching! The cost for the commute by auto is $320 a month.
The pass is cheaper, even though there’s a real cash outlay.
Yes and the real savings come if your household can cut back 1 car. Do not drive to work yet car insurance is $1400 per year
 #1635372  by ryanwc
 
Tadman wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:08 pm
John_Perkowski wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:44 pm
Ching Ching! The cost for the commute by auto is $320 a month.
This doesn't take into account the property tax savings. I have never researched WI property taxes, but Indiana's are much lower than Illinios. I have friends in Chicago suburbs that pay the price of a small car every year in property taxes. Can you imagine finding a new Toyota Camry in your garage every year for free? Makes that monthly commuter train bill a lot more palatable.

I'm sure Mr. Norman has a few neighbors in the larger houses of his area that wouldn't mind a move to Kenosha or Valpo.
Either your friends are phenomenally wealthy or they're bluffing you. Between my mom and my family, I can quote you taxes for houses that are close to 3x the median price for IL, in the high-tax suburbs of Oak Park and Evanston, that would barely cover a 10 year old Subaru at Carmax.

And assuming this site is more or less accurate ( https://www.tax-rates.org/propertytax.php?state=indiana), then using the difference between the bill for my house and a similarly priced house in Lake Co., IN it would take you three years to buy the cheapest vehicle carvana is willing to sell.

People love to tell salacious tales.

But there's a reason 7 million people live on the IL side of the metro area and a few hundred thousand live on the IN side. We could all move. We don't want to.
 #1635373  by eolesen
 
Well.... My dad's 60 year old home in Mt Prospect is $14K without the senior exemption.

Lake County homes near me are paying >$19K in property taxes. Tad's guesstimate of a car purchase every year is spot on accurate in places like Lake Barrington.

Mine in McHenry County is 70 years old, and just under $6K, but a similar age/lot/SF home we considered in Cook is $14K and another in Lake is $16K... and all three are in the same school district.

The difference in property taxes between the three counties would have covered my son's Honda Civic payment in four years...

Rates in WI are higher but valuations are lower, so it evens out. I only live where I do because we take care of aging family. Some people simply don't know any better, but as IL taxes go up and services are reduced to cover pension liability, more and more are leaving.
 #1635388  by ryanwc
 
Property taxes aren't really an "Illinois" thing but a local government thing. Lake Barrington sends their kids to palaces 180 days a year, commensurate with their home lifestyles. I don't know Mt. Prospect well, but I had to scout some locations for an event in Wheeling Twp. 3 years ago and their park district facilities are better than the $100/month health care facilities. If your dad doesn't use such things, and presumably no longer has school-age kids, it may not be worth it to him. Of course, my mother stayed in O.P. long after her kids were done, and felt continuing to pay for schools was a responsibility to those who'd helped pay for ours.

50% or more of property taxes here go to schools in most IL communities, and a big chunk of the rest to the local municipality, with parks (though my parks are managed/paid by the muni), the county and various other small units making up the rest. For me, it works out to schools at about 70%, muni about 20%. The county, less responsive to any small set of voters and their concerns, is only about 7%. (And we're among the few that abolished our township govt. But I think township gov't ix <3% of the tax bill in most urban areas.)

The large differences you report in taxes for 3 similar sized properties in the same school district pretty much have to be because the properties have different values, since the county tax rate couldn't possibly have that big an effect. Price is a function of demand, which goes back to what I said above -- people prefer to live in these communities.

Basically, people in communities like Mt. Prospect get what they pay for, and most of what they pay for is the school system.
 #1635390  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Ryan, never forget regarding Real Estate Taxes, what I always told my clients during my thirty five years in private practice as a CPA:

"Good Schools, supported by taxes, bring good people, which bring good home prices".

How we go so derailed on this topic to discuss Real Estate taxes escapes me.
 #1635392  by ryanwc
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:50 am "Good Schools, supported by taxes, bring good people, which bring good home prices".

How we go so derailed on this topic to discuss Real Estate taxes escapes me.
Mostly my fault, though in my defense, I only run this far after someone points me in this direction.

To get this back on track, I do think the pricing of these passes is unwise. I suspect that's true from a a pure CPA perspective, but maybe I'm wrong. I could understand Amtrak being unable to recognize the situation from 1,000 miles away. But someone upthread suggested WI DoT would have been the decisionmakers. Is there something about allocation of costs and income that would make the passes problematic for WI even though they are net positive for Amtrak? Perhaps because of in-state mileage and some different way of assessing the contribution of a pass vs. a ticket?