Hampton Roads/Norfolk/Newport News NE Regional Service

NellieBly wrote: To avoid the Acca Yard problem, CSX has suggested to the state that Amtrak trains diverge at Doswell onto the former Hanover Sub (C&O) to Richmond Main Street Station (which the state renovated and reopened).

Amtrak isn't sure about this, since the Hanover is not a very fast piece of railroad, but I thinik that with some track repairs and possibly some curve realignment, this could be a good choice for Amtrak.

Doesn't this route pass right next to King's Dominion? Making direct service to the amusement park possible would be an excellent addition to the existing Amtrak service between WAS & NPN.

jsmeyers wrote:Why isn't there service on the NS rail line to Suffolk/Norfolk instead of or in addition to the NN service?

'Instead of' would bypass Williamsburg, which I would guess is a fairly frequently used station. Now, offering service in addition to NPN service, would be nice. Especially if the possibility of direct Virginia Beach service would be opened up (I'm not familiar with the routes down there, so I'm not sure if this is even possible).

It seems to me that with Richmond downtown Main St. station having been restored to use, this has removed the need for Staples Mill Station, which was constructed in the first place in order to eliminate Main St. station. Any time I've been to Staples Mill Rd. it has impressed me as inconveniently far from anything.

Seems to me this idea to reroute Amtrak onto the ex-C&O east (south) of Doswell has some merit. Yes, I know it bypasses Ashland. Nothing's perfect.

Staples Mill was built to replace Broad Street Station, which is a shame because that building is beautiful, close to downtown and has plenty of parking. There is a good amount of parking at Main street, but security would really have to be beefed up. Losing Staples Mill station I don't think would be a big deal, but going down the Hanover line is longer,(and single tracked) so I'm not sure how much time it would add on. Also any south bound trains would have to go down the old "S" line in leaving Richmond and is single tracked for awhile, gets a good deal of freight traffic, and I'm not sure what shape it's in.

Let me briefly elaborate on the situation at Richmond. When ACL trains used Broad Street, the station was on a loop of track. ACL trains entered the station SB, made a station stop, ran around the loop, crossed the throat, and turned south onto the ACL "belt line". SAL trains reached Main Street by crossing to the east side of Acca Yard at the south end, and using a connecting track to the C&O. When SAL began using Broad Street, they would still cross to the east, head halfway around the loop so they were heading north in Broad Street, then back around the loop to head south on the connection through Main Street Station.

The problem is Acca Yard. Crossing through the yard to get to Main Street Station is a problematic business; in fact, getting through Acca at all can be tough. Hence the idea of using the Hanover Sub from Doswell. But this would also require the use of the former SAL main south from downtown Richmond. It would need to be resignaled and speeded up.

Amtrak should negotiate the use of the Hanover sub and perhaps "relaunch" the service.

They need a name for this service and I'm partial to formalizing the name "Tide Water Service."

From the cooperate picnic area of Kings Dominion, the Hanover sub is within a 5 minute walk. They could easily construct a small station here and perhaps even a parking lot to replace Ashland station. If I remember from a while ago, Ashland isn't more than 10-15 minutes from Kings Dominion so it would just be a matter of driving up there.

There are unique marketing opportunities here. Imagine if I could purchase a round trip ticket in Baltimore that also included my admission to the park or if I could add an "Amtrak" option to my season pass and get 5 or 10 round trips for a low price.

I can only hope KD would be forward thinking enough to see that although they might not be collecting parking revenue, they would be opening the door up for people without cars or who can't drive or don't want to drive and would be bringing in additional ticket revenue.

As for the tracks, perhaps the Southeast High Speed Rail corridor could include this in their project.

If CSX runs trains that don't need to stop at Acca yard (perhaps the juice train?) they could run on Passenger main either in exchange for track work or at a small fee like Delaware did.

My recollection is that Amtrak a year or so considered discontinuing 66 & 67 south of Washington, reducing Newport News service by nearly 50%. Virginia objected, citing the 2007 Jamestown anniversary. Those festivities are now largely behind us, which causes me to wonder whether the service reduction idea will resurface.

my brother lives in VA beach I had to take greyhound on AUG 10th an The 12th Flew Back becuse I said I would never take greyhound again. it is really convient to leave stamford at 1am an be in VA Beach in the 11am hour on the train. who should i put my suggestion to? if at all else fails at least keep the 66&67 working weekends when amtrak is busy.

JimB wrote:My recollection is that Amtrak a year or so considered discontinuing 66 & 67 south of Washington, reducing Newport News service by nearly 50%. Virginia objected, citing the 2007 Jamestown anniversary. Those festivities are now largely behind us, which causes me to wonder whether the service reduction idea will resurface.

would be what's in preliminary study, extending Acela and electrified Regional down to Richmond

Not trying to call the author a liar, but is there any truth to this? Has anyone else heard about this?

I've taken the current route many times before and I can appreciate this post as it is filling in allot of gaps such as Acca yard. I never knew the name of the facility but I could always count on train 95 to crawl through this portion of the route and take a few-minute hit (on a good day) for a northbound Amtrak train. I can tell you that in the summer, this route gets even worse with the track speed restrictions due to excessive heat.

With respect to amusement parks, lets not forget another amusement park on the WAS-NPN route; Busch Gardens. You can see the roller coasters from the tracks (to give you an idea of how close it is). As a matter of fact; the parking lots for the park and a main road (the name escapes Me.; It might be US 60) is all that separates the line from the park. Given the fact that VA residents get a huge season-long discount, it would be another opportunity for Amtrak to capitalize on those coming from the tidewater area to go to Busch Gardens. The problem now is lack of frequency and more than likely there would be allot of marketing and promotion work that would be needed before the forecast numbers would justify the additional service let alone the feasibility of this additional service simply based on an amusement park(s). Also, the justification for not exploring this option is that passengers already have the Williamsburg station (not sure how far that is from the amusement park). Does Busch Gardens even have shuttle service from the station? Without dealing with the capital costs, Amtrak can negotiate a deal with BG to shuttle park-bound passengers from the station to the park.

Someone also mentioned extending service into Norfolk. That would be better than the current terminus and here is why I think so. In order to get to NPN (the most direct way that I and most other people use) is to cross the James River via I-64, I-664 or the James River Bridge (those are the crossings I know of). The former two are highly utilized and one probably spends more time trying to get across than one does getting from Hampton to Richmond. This is a good question however. I've often wondered this myself but I always attributed this to the need for capital project which Amtrak can not afford (i.e. a rail crossing over the James River). I think the reasoning of the prospective rail passenger who is currently driving is that "if I spend this effort just getting across the bridge to the station, I might as well keep going".

With all that being said, I have to admit that my last few experiences on this route have been rather pleasant/reliable.

FYI, Richmond is on a freight railroad (CSX) and it is not likely that they would permit electrification of their railroad for Amtrak's use. It would cause clearance problems and in addition would create a bottleneck at Richmond where an engine change would be necessary.
The Acela Express trains run between Boston and Washington where there is an adequate market for this type of service, I have my doubts that such a market exists south of Washington.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:FYI, Richmond is on a freight railroad (CSX) and it is not likely that they
would permit electrification of their railroad for Amtrak's use. It would
cause clearance problems and in addition would create a bottleneck at
Richmond where an engine change would be necessary.
The Acela Express trains run between Boston and Washington where there
is an adequate market for this type of service, I have my doubts that
such a market exists south of Washington.
Noel Weaver

Everybody keeps saying there will be clearance problems if any track is electrified. I can understand that concerns for clearance under overpasses. But as far as electrification of open track is concerned, why would there be clearance problem? Or are people really concerned only about clearance problems under overpasses?

Jishnu wrote: Everybody keeps saying there will be clearance problems if any track is electrified. I can understand that concerns for clearance under overpasses. But as far as electrification of open track is concerned, why would there be clearance problem? Or are people really concerned only about clearance problems under overpasses?

AFAIK, double stacks. That said, I've always wondered what the possibility of battery powered locomotives is (electric, no catenary or limited catenary). It woudl seem something as large as a locomotive would be perfect for experimenting with new technologies.
I like the Norfolk idea whether it be in addition to or instead of NPN.

The CSX Trenton Line from Neshashimy to West Trenton is electrified with 11kv 25hz AC for SEPTA trains. A detailed plan was made of the electrification of Conrail's Lehigh Line from Aldene to Hunter when NJT was planning electrification of their Raritan Valley Line. Catenary that fits double stacks is doable. If an overpass is particularly troublesome, it can be treated like a non-powered bridge as and have a drop-pan instruction associated with it. The wires could just go over the bridge to rejoin the train at the other side.

I would venture to say that the Washington DC to New Port News Amtrak service is under utilized and with some additional help from the State of Virginia as well as Amtrak marketing department. Additional frequencies would make for better alternatives etc. and in turn make it more of a rail passenger friendly route. We've seen how additional trains on corridors have led to increased ridership (i.e. Pacific Northwest, Downeaster). Course the route from Washington DC to Newport News via Richmond is not Amtrak owned, leading Amtrak to negotiate with the host RR that would likely demand increased capacity of the line etc.

With Amtrak's newly rebuilt Main Street Station, I am surprised the State has not pushed for additional service.

And in all honesty, I enjoyed the Twilight Shoreliner as an overnight train with its Viewliner sleeping car (New Port New to Boston via Richmond and Wasington DC) better than the Federal (Washington DC to Boston only). The problem was they could never getting a descent operating schedule of this train between Wasington DC and Boston in both directions - for the Twilight Shoreliner (it catered more to the mail schedule).

If ever resurrected, it may be best to operate under the current schedule of #66/67, with a Viewliner in tow. I remember when this train ran with two Viewliners! Now a Viewliner can hardly be scrapped together for current routes or routes where demand exceeds capacity (the lone Viewliner on the Cardinal). Course now the Viewliner would sort of be stranded, as it used to be switched out in Boston to the Lake Shore Limited train for eventual servicing at Sunnyside Yard NY and forwarding to Florida.

Warrington wanted to make the Twilight Shoreliner equivalent to the West Coast's Coast Starlight. Course I don't think that was ever achieved. Amenities came, but were quickly taken away as money ran thin!

would create a bottleneck at
Richmond where an engine change would be necessary

Assuming that if they electrified, they would expand service.

They could always continue to do the engine changes in Washington for the long distance trains, and just the Richmond trains would run with motors.

They could even run the Richmond trains and NPN trains via the C&O route and terminate them at Main Street, leaving Staples Mill Road only for the long distance trains. This would probably be a better place for the NPN trains to change engines anyway. Isn't there room for a small Amtrak layover yard there?