Freight to VD Yard?

When the circus was going to be playing Baclay Center, there was some speculation about how they were going to get there. I remarked that it was a shame thatthe circus ended up using road vehicels to get to an arena that sits in the middle of a railyard.

It was abundantly establsihed that the Atlantic Avenue Branch can not reaosnably accomodate the circus train or freight at this time.

My point is to ask: How plausible would it be to suggest that freight service on that branch be re-established? Other, of course, than the issues of getting the money to pay for such a thing.

This was answered in the Circus Train thread. There are too many clearance issues.

It's extremely impractical. First of all, to establish a new freight route you would first need customers. And the once-a-year Circus Train that, for all we know, might just decide not to come back next year, is not a viable enough reason to spend lots of money for freight along the Atlantic Branch. And other than the circus train, there's no real basis for freight customers at all along the Atlantic Branch. There aren't to many heavy industries that would be getting carloads with of stuff on a frequent basis.

Then you would have to find a place to deliver the goods to the customers. And the only place you can do that is at VD Yard. Unless you're proposing that customers carry stone out of cars in buckets through emergency exits...

And them there's the fact that VD Yard is actually being used as an actual yard for LIRR trains on weekdays. We can't just boot them out for freight cars.

So you'd like to re-activate freight on a line that would have no customers, and you did have any customers, you wouldn't have any track space to put cars for them. Sounds like a non-starter to me.

You have to understand how the LIRR thinks before any proposals to start service can cross one's mind. Their first priority is, of course, money, then comes safety, OTP, press conferences, environmental impact statements, their public image, equipment considerations, delaying capital projects, then passengers and finally freight at the very bottom of the food chain.

First off one must realize if there is any need (DEMAND) for freight. There is no longer any sore of industry that is located around VD yard or if there was a possible transload customer there is no room for a car to be spotted and unloaded. Plus the clearences, weight restrictions, LIRR BS.....

What some discussions around here center around is the "what if". While it is not bad to dream (even I had an imagination once) any railroad past or present wont run a service unless there is some cash behind it. Consider this before your ideas take hold and you will realize the situation on any logically run RR.

(Mod, Please move to the NYAR forum)

Although not any longer a viable or practical option to run freight down to VD yard, our younger buffs may not even realize that up until the 1960's (I don't have the exact date freight service stopped to Brooklyn) the LIRR did run freight trains into Brooklyn station and VD yard. There were no freight sidings, save for one, west of Jamaica on the Atlantic branch once it was grade crossing eliminated in the early 1900's.

BUT, the Yard was not in the current configuration it is in now. Different times, different needs.

While there is no industry, "what if" the Barclays Center and/or Atlantic Mall wanted trash removed via rail, would that be possible?

The Barclays Center is an arena. They are in the entertainment business. They are not in the trash or waste business. Trash would get picked up by a waste company (such as Waste Management), an then shipped out in a manner most economical to them.

Freight rail has changed so much in this country since the 1960's, and the weights and clearances make this branch unviable to be used for freight.

lirr42 wrote:It's extremely impractical. First of all, to establish a new freight route you would first need customers. "...Their first priority is, of course, money, then comes safety, OTP, press conferences, environmental impact statements, their public image, equipment considerations, delaying capital projects, then passengers and finally freight at the very bottom of the food chain.

LIRR42: I enjoyed the entire post with the insightful list. What is OTP?

BTW, Atlantic Branch Info: http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/branch ... ntic%20Ave
Flatbush: http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/flatbush/flatbush.htm

Flatbush Ave/ Atlantic Terminal and the new Barclay's Center - LIRR trains are now being stored for service to and from Atlantic Terminal.

VD yard exists, but is down to 5 tracks and a lead...one way in and out...one track.

You go in on a lead, which holds 10 cars...you go in west and then east are brand new tracks 1,2,3,4...1 holds 6 cars, 2-4 hold 8 cars, track 5, which is to the west and just north of the lead track holds 8, and the switching lead (which gets you to all tracks, holds 10).

For simplicity's sake of explaining it, the lead track and track No. 5 both end at bumper blocks at the basement wall to the new Barclay Center.

It is proposed to build over the air rights to the existing yard, truncated as it is...can't wait to see that one, or what is supposed to go there.

See more extensive info at Circus Train thread as advised: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 3&t=136360 IMO: It was well covered and perhaps "beaten to death"

nyandw wrote:

lirr42 wrote:Their first priority is, of course, money, then comes safety, OTP, press conferences, environmental impact statements, their public image, equipment considerations, delaying capital projects, then passengers and finally freight at the very bottom of the food chain.

LIRR42: I enjoyed the entire post with the insightful list. What is OTP?

OTP = On-Time Percentage, something the LIRR can get mightily concerned about (it's a nice statistic that they can fluff up and flaunt to passengers that they're doing their jobs at least somewhat competently, but everybody knows it's complete BS). Here were the LIRR's OTP numbers for March

OTP = On-Time Percentage, something the LIRR can get mightily concerned about (it's a nice statistic that they can fluff up and flaunt to passengers that they're doing their jobs at least somewhat competently, but everybody knows it's complete BS). Here were the LIRR's OTP numbers for March[/quote]

Thank you. So as not to "hijack" this thread further... I'll post about it.

Unfortunately, once again the MTA got pissed on by rich land developers and political promises. The "new" VD yard was "promised " to be a fully complete 8 track capable of holding 80 cars for storage, cleaning and service. It was supposed to be a state of the art rail yard with the completion of the Barclay's arena.

It was promised to have up to date toilet serving facilities by a in ground manifold system and eco friendly waste water management system, eliminating the need for a contractor to use a "honey wagon" to service the toilets. It was planned to have a full M of E locker room and offices and part supply for light repairs and inspections. It was supposed to have a crew room for train and drill crews and a yardmaster. It was supposed to have an office and storage areas for M of W and signal departments.

It was supposed to be fully interlocked and have a entrance located on the west end (punching through the tunnel wall) eliminating the need for a double drill into the yard.

So what did the LIRR get.....a hole 30 foot below street level hastily chiseled into the surrounding area with a total of five usable tracks, barely fitting 40 cars. No toilet servicing, no crew rooms, no interlocked switches, no easy entrance.......they even had to fight for proper lighting in the yard....which still isn't really "right". There are so many close clearances in the yard it borders on dangerous. There are many areas of bare chiseled rock and concrete jutting out of walls. There is steel re-bar and reinforcements sticking out all over the place. M of E has to walk nearly two blocks to get to the yard with their supplies and tools to work on the trains, then descend a 30 foot "temporary" staircase into this hole. Train crews have a four block walk to get to their equipment and use the same staircase. This is in all types of weather. It floods like a swimming pool when it rains, and is IMPOSSIBLE to access or clean in type any significant snow fall. All this was deemed acceptable since it is only "temporary".

The developer claimed "bad economic conditions" for having the contract MODIFIED by greedy politicians eager to have an arena to show off and pat each other on the back about. The LIRR got screwed out of the yard (and all of the other promised reconstruction and housing incentives included into the original plans for the surrounding neighborhood, but the developer still kept his tax breaks and incentives and I won't get into the eminent domain issue used to claim the land for private use) until "economic conditions improve"...and for rich land developers that is NEVER once the show piece of the plan is completed and the politicians had their day in front of the shiny new arena on the evening news. Once the portion that is now considered VD yard was finished, the contractor high tailed it out of town.

That being said, you can see how IMPRACTICABLE IT IS TO OPERATE FREIGHT TO BROOKLYN AND VD YARD. There is NO ROOM. There is NO NEED. More rail fan dreaming. If you are not able to physically access the area, use the internet to look at the neighborhood and see for yourself WHY IT IS TOTALLY IMPRACTICAL, IF NOT PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to do..........................

To all those who posted in response to my initial querie, I point out that I acknowledged that freight is not presently workable on the Atalntic Avenue branch the way that it and VD are configured. What I meant to be getting at was whther it would be worthwhile to incur the substantial cost of reworking that branch to make freight workable. Part of that is whether there is presently cusotmers who would adequately support such a service if it were to exist. The obvious customers that I can think of straight off are the stores in the shopping malls and Barclay's Center which has need of purchasing various supplies.

jayrmli wrote:The Barclays Center is an arena. They are in the entertainment business. They are not in the trash or waste business. Trash would get picked up by a waste company (such as Waste Management), an then shipped out in a manner most economical to them.

LOL True, but the Center and Mall both generate plenty of trash, so guess the question is: do they produce enough to make pick up via rail worth while? Doesn't the mall already have a connection (Track 1) from its basement where dumpsters might be loaded onto rail cars? IIRC, WM uses rail to transfer trash out of NYC, so replacing trucks with rail cars.

hrfcarl wrote:

jayrmli wrote:The Barclays Center is an arena. They are in the entertainment business. They are not in the trash or waste business. Trash would get picked up by a waste company (such as Waste Management), an then shipped out in a manner most economical to them.

LOL True, but the Center and Mall both generate plenty of trash, so guess the question is: do they produce enough to make pick up via rail worth while? Doesn't the mall already have a connection (Track 1) from its basement where dumpsters might be loaded onto rail cars? IIRC, WM uses rail to transfer trash out of NYC, so replacing trucks with rail cars.

You remember correctly. The mall has a basement area with a large double door that opens onto Track 1. It would be a capitol idea to get trash out of there and the arena on a daily train, the major questions being whether the line can handle trash hauling cars for one, and what type of locomotives would move that train. (Plural on locomotives because there's no turn around provision there).

Of course then would come NIMBYs over trash on the Atlantic el.