Free Ride?

Here's a question.... I fequently ride from 30th to Market East. Hey guess what.... they don't collect tickets. Dosnt septa relize the yare getting jipped like $ 1.5? I go back to 30th so $ 3. I wonder how many other people notice this? say 20 ppl do it a day... thats $60 in free rides!!

Njt4300 wrote:Here's a question.... I fequently ride from 30th to Market East. Hey guess what.... they don't collect tickets. Doesn't [Dosnt] septa realize [relize] the yare getting gypped [jipped] like $ 1.5? I go back to 30th so $ 3. I wonder how many other people notice this? say 20 ppl do it a day... thats $60 in free rides!!

Fare collection policies on the CC portion have always been a mystery. Maybe someone else can chime in with an insider's explanation, but it seems to me that whether fares are collected or not depends a lot on the conductors' situation at the time.

There are often loads of people getting on & off over a very short stretch so they may feel it's too much hassle to try to collect from everyone. On the other hand I've seen some zealous conductors stand right by the door and nail everyone as they get off. And then there are a few ill-minded types who see someone going to/from 30th St. loaded with bags and never once ask if they're taking Amtrak. It's clearly easier to dink a family for 12 bucks than it is to honor the fare-interchange rules. Just the RRD equivalent of the transit side's "sucker fare", I guess.

Of course there'd be lots less screaming and incentives to fare-beat if SEPTA didn't peg the fare at such a ridiculous level for a trip that's just a few blocks long, but that's another matter.

But does it pay to try and get that $1.50? SEPTA changes crews at Suburban Station, so if you get on at 30th or University the crew in most cases isn't going to be overly concerned about checking your ticket. This is especially true with 30th St, where a crew is likely going to just think you're heading up a Reading line. I rarely use Temple, but I'd imagine things are pretty much the same there as at University City. When I'm going to be spending time going back and forth through center city I just buy the ticket. For three bucks I can hang onto it for 6 months and on the off chance that a SEPTA conductor actually asks me for a ticket I can produce that and avoid the surcharge or other penalties.

In the past I've argued that the Center City segment should be a free ride zone, but several good arguments about the homeless taking up residence and such convinced me otherwise. There'd also be the problem of potentially taking riders away from the full-fare subway lines for trips between Temple and University City. I'd say the current situation kind of works, it's not perfect, but it's not nearly as flawwed as you make it out to be. The trains are already there providing service for commuters from the suburbs, so really to have a few passengers hop on at 30th St and off at Suburban or Market East without paying a fare is an extremely minor cost to the system. I still think a ride free zone could work, but it'd require secuity guards to keep the homeless out and other things.

Who knows, maybe if or when SEPTA finally upgrades their fare system you'll get your wish. The Conductors will be issued handheld scanners for farecards and they'll be quickly and easily able to ascertain whether or not you paid your fare. With this improvement they'll be able to tighten fare enforcement on the Center City segment.

Let me dispel this erroneous rumor about Center City fares. There is no such thing as a free ride for the riding public on SEPTA's RRD. Even senior citizens pay a dollar with ID presented to the conductor for most trains. The fare for travel between Market East, Suburban Station, and 30th station is SUPPOSED to be collected, and it is a MANDATORY $3.50 roundtrip ticket as per SEPTA's fare tariff. There is no $1.50 one way fare unless you are going to/from Center City with a Medicare Card or a half-fare ID. Every once and a while, SEPTA RRD revenue supervisors scrutinize and discipline conductors for failing to collect fares in Center City. I believe you all see the inconsitent fare collection downtown because most conductors are frustrated by the idiocy of the current system. SEPTA doesn't want to provide the necessary manpower, particularly on off-peak trains, to make fare collection between the three main Center City stations possible without unnecessary train delay; SEPTA also uses antiquated ticket machines to sell tickets, which most of the time these machines are malfunctioning; SEPTA also has an inconsistent policy towards the surcharge for onboard purchases of tickets. SEPTA's conductors, normally 1 maybe 2 crew members in most cases, could never consistently collect fares in Center City under the current operations structure that SEPTA has.
Any of you ride the R-5 Paoli-Thorndale? 99% of the westbound R-5's that stop at Overbrook collect the fares on the platform. Most of the inbound 5's collect on the ground at Villanova during the school year. We're talking a minimum of 2-3 minutes delay. Imagine Market East, Suburban, or 30th St. and the conductor is exchanging fares and ticket receipts while some small child falls between the gap between the train and the platform. I'll tell you what, SEPTA would perform an instant about face, and blame the conductor for not assisting the passengers on an off the train. It's really a joke.
The other problem is that Suburban Station is where the majority of trains recrew.
Don't believe me about the mandatory Center City roundtrip ticket? Go to the ticket window upstairs at any of the main three Center City locations, and ask for a ticket to another CC station, see what they give you; or , just look at the fare structure that is published on most of the RRD MU's, normally located near the exits by the doors.

Njt4300 wrote:Here's a question.... I fequently ride from 30th to Market East. Hey guess what.... they don't collect tickets. Dosnt septa relize the yare getting jipped like $ 1.5? I go back to 30th so $ 3. I wonder how many other people notice this? say 20 ppl do it a day... thats $60 in free rides!!

And I actually mentioned this early last year in a post regarding SEPTA's financial woes. I'm glad someone else finally became aware of the largely untapped revenue potential. And believe me, 20 people in your figure is grossly underexaggerated. I would argue closer to at least 20 people per train. SEPTA probably would never admit to that, but I see hoardes people ride for free everyday

I almost always get my pass checked when I ride from center city to Temple U. I know that is not always the case with University City but at temple more often then not they will check especially outside of rush hour.

Sean@Temple

I think the deal works the best if you are going from Temple to a CC station. Worst case you pay the fare on the train but with no penality. I tell people who want Trailpasses and NJT tickets (because some idiot decided no one at Temple U buys those) that they might get the free ride to the big three.

I think Whovian nailed it. The core problems lie with SEPTA's RRD collection system, most which would probably be recognizable to a conductor whom the Time Lord (right, Whovian?) magically transported here and now from the late 19th century.

I believe you all see the inconsitent fare collection downtown because most conductors are frustrated by the idiocy of the current system.

I wonder if many of the conductors are unconsciously performing a cost-benefit analysis; e.g. if we tag everybody SEPTA gains maybe a hundred bucks a trip[*], but that also delays the train which could ripple back up the system, plus people are gonna get p!$$ed off at paying $3.50 for a mile or less[**], so it's simply not worth the hassle.

SEPTA also uses antiquated ticket machines to sell tickets

It's beyond ridiculous that they bought TVMs that are so primitive they can't be upgraded to recognize anything other than bills issued before 1990. Suppose a Coke machine only accepted buffalo nickels and Mercury dimes? The EU issued 7 brand new bills and 8 new coins, and thousands of machines were ready from day one. But SEPTA says it can't deal with two different pictures of Lincoln?? GAAHHHH!!!



[*] In my experience at least, many of the short-hoppers are also regular pass-holders who are using the CC trains for casual travel, so their fares are already accounted for

[**] I've seen a number of pretty loud arguments over the crazy fares, esp. from people making one-way trips who feel they're being targeted for "revenue enhancement". Some got so hot that the cops were called.

What kind of people are looking for a free ride between the 3 center city stations?

I have never been in a situation where I thought it more convenient to take RRD a mere 20 blocks rather than use transit.

Maybe there are some people who commute to work this way and are too cheap to buy a pass or tokens? I don't imagine there are too many in this category, but I don't know.

As JeffK wrote, I would venture that many of these short trippers already have a pass.

They should just make it free in CC, is it really worth the trouble and effort to collect that fare while prepping to have 100+ people depart the train? The real solution is a real fare system which SEPTA has no interest in implementing. Furthermore, it is obscence that it costs $3.50 to ride from Suburban to Market East, while its $1.30 on the MFL (and faster). Its not like the fares collected on those few are actually going to have an impact on SEPTA's bottom line.

[quote="JeffK"]I think Whovian nailed it. The core problems lie with SEPTA's RRD collection system, most which would probably be recognizable to a conductor whom the Time Lord (right, Whovian?) magically transported here and now from the late 19th century.

You've got me! Are you a fan, too?

Flynnt and Jfrey: I adamantly disagree with your posts. I would say approxiametly 10-15% of the total boardings between the 3 major Center City stations discharge within Center City stops. I see it first hand every day. Most do not have a trail pass, and there are more arguments than you think when conductors attempt to collect a fare from Market East to Suburban Station. Try to Ride the Market-Frankford El for one stop for free? It costs $2.00 cash fare to go one stop, no matter the distance on any city division SEPTA vehicle. If you don't think the fare collection between Center City is a big deal, consider this. If 5 people boarded a midday train at Market East destined for Suburban Station without a ticket or a pass, and the conductor didn't take their cash fares, SEPTA would be out $17.50. Imagine that happening on every train every day of the week, month, or even year. How can a cash strapped transit agency cry broke with this type of inexcusable lost revenue. You can't charge the people on the El and not charge the people on the RRD. What's good for the goose....

whovian wrote: I would say approxiametly 10-15% of the total boardings between the 3 major Center City stations discharge within Center City stops. I see it first hand every day. Most do not have a trail pass, and there are more arguments than you think when conductors attempt to collect a fare from Market East to Suburban Station.

I'll buy that 10-15% of people get on and off within center city, but are you sure they don't have trailpasses or transpasses? We could assume one way or the other, but you can't know unless you stop people and ask. 10-15% is a ridiculous number. But if that's what it is, that's what it is. Of course, if it is even 5%, that is thousands of dollars of missed revenue per day.

Try to Ride the Market-Frankford El for one stop for free? It costs $2.00 cash fare to go one stop, no matter the distance on any city division SEPTA vehicle.

Of course. But who are these people who are beating the system for a couple of dollars each day? People who drive to/from work(and dont have passes) but need to get across center city during the course of the day? People who use one token on the way to/from work and use this "trick" to get out of buying more tokens/buying a pass when they need to get across center city?

When I had a trailpass and needed to get around center city, it NEVER occurred to me to take the train. Taking a bus or subway or trolley was always more convenient. Thus, I would assume some of these people are walking by more convenient blue line/green line/bus stops to get their free rides. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to save a few dollars. The fact that it is a "trick" that not everyone knows of might make it even more inviting to some.

flynnt wrote:

whovian wrote: I would say approxiametly 10-15% of the total boardings between the 3 major Center City stations discharge within Center City stops. I see it first hand every day. Most do not have a trail pass, and there are more arguments than you think when conductors attempt to collect a fare from Market East to Suburban Station.

I'll buy that 10-15% of people get on and off within center city, but are you sure they don't have trailpasses or transpasses? We could assume one way or the other, but you can't know unless you stop people and ask. 10-15% is a ridiculous number. But if that's what it is, that's what it is. Of course, if it is even 5%, that is thousands of dollars of missed revenue per day.

Try to Ride the Market-Frankford El for one stop for free? It costs $2.00 cash fare to go one stop, no matter the distance on any city division SEPTA vehicle.

Of course. But who are these people who are beating the system for a couple of dollars each day? People who drive to/from work(and dont have passes) but need to get across center city during the course of the day? People who use one token on the way to/from work and use this "trick" to get out of buying more tokens/buying a pass when they need to get across center city?

When I had a trailpass and needed to get around center city, it NEVER occurred to me to take the train. Taking a bus or subway or trolley was always more convenient. Thus, I would assume some of these people are walking by more convenient blue line/green line/bus stops to get their free rides. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to save a few dollars. The fact that it is a "trick" that not everyone knows of might make it even more inviting to some.

A hasty and inaccurate assessment. Given what your interests are, farebeating, I should not be suprised. 10-15% is a generous figure, especially midday. I see it all the time Flynnt. Most of the folks that travel between Center City stops think it is free. Ones that have passes normally show them to the conductor upon boarding on their own accord. Some have Amtrak tickets, which are valid in Center City to/from 30th Station. I'm on the railroad 5-6 days a week, and I frequently have lots of people come up to me at Suburban Station asking me if we stop at Market East or 30th Street; and when I inform them that we do make those stops, they go down to the conductor and turn away from our train when he attempts to get a $3.50 fare from them.
There is no such thing as a free ride, sir. For those who use a token, I'm assuming on a city division vehicle, to go into Center City for work, then subsequently decide to hop on the RRD for FREE for whatever reason they have, whether it is lunch or leisure, is absurd. There is a farely widespread misconception that because conductors don't typically delay trains in Center City proper for collecting fares on the platform that the ride is a free one. I've heard countless people say, "but I'm going to the next stop." Does anyone say that when there going from 13th street to 15th street on the El? Does anyone assume that because they are going the next stop on the El that it is free? Why would one think that it would be free on the Regional Rail to ride one or two stops in Center City when that is not the case with the El or the Broad street sub? The Regional Rail has the highest fare structure on the SEPTA system.
I'm sure if those folks from the state took a survey of how many people board/discharge within Center City stations without paying, or being approached for a fare, there would be some changes made, especially wiht SEPTA claiming financial problems.

whovian wrote: A hasty and inaccurate assessment. Given what your interests are, farebeating, I should not be suprised. 10-15% is a generous figure, especially midday.

Pardon? Just because I am interested in something doesn't mean I do it. (And for the record, I don't farebeat). I am interested in who and -to a lesser extent- why.

Yes, I believe 10-15% is a good figure for ALL passengers. What percent of those 10-15% aren't paying their fares though?

I frequently have lots of people come up to me at Suburban Station asking me if we stop at Market East or 30th Street; and when I inform them that we do make those stops, they go down to the conductor and turn away from our train when he attempts to get a $3.50 fare from them.

Ok, but of course these people aren't getting the free ride. They're only trying to. So the system is working here.

I'm not sure what your stance is. Are most people getting this free ride when they try to get it or aren't they? In your above quote, they aren't.

There is no such thing as a free ride, sir.

I agree technically/legally/ethically there is no free ride. BUT if a fare rule is unenforced the ride is free for all intents and purposes. Is an unenforced law really a law?

Again, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who decides it is better it to get a free ride between the center city rrd stations than to pay for a (likely more convenient) ride on transit. These are people who don't have transpasses or trailpasses but find themselves downtown with the need to travel along a 2 mile corridor of Market Street but nowhere else (on an apparantly regular basis).

The point, sir, is that the my conductor is in the minority of those who delay the train to take fares on the platform in Center City. Your right, the people in my example didn't get a free ride on my train; they went over to 1 track and rode the R5 over to Market East, where the conductor didn't ask them anything. So yes, they ultimately still got there free ride. Now, I'll agree that the lack of enforcement in regards to Center City fare collection on the RRD would lead people to take advantage of the situation, and that is totally SEPTA's fault.
How can a cash strapped agency allow anyone to ride for free, particularly for the 10-15% out of the gross total boardings in Center City who are destined for another Center City stop, without making some attempt to stop it from happening. For all intents and purpose, yes, a good number of people are beating the system everyday. You, Flynnt, admit yourself in your post that these are folks 'without transpasses or trailpasses'. So I hope you'll 'pardon' me if I stand by my above posts.