EL MU/Locomotive in Tabor Lake???

henry6 wrote:there is no Pocono in the Delaware River. What is there, at Point of Gap, are several cement hoppers.

Where are the hoppers? I've only found a roof walk boxcar, and a plug door from a more modern boxcar on top of some roller bearing trucks, also some highway tractors. The boxcar roof must be above water in a good drought, it's very rusty and near the surface, not far from shore.
I did try swimming on the bottom from the Pennsylvania to the New Jersey shore. The only way I could find 35 feet was to stick my depth gauge in the mud! 30 feet seemed to be the average depth most of the way across.

Now, can some of you please help me with information about the "Essex". Please see that topic.

NHRR WTBY wrote:There's a story told by the folks who spend the summer on Tabor Lake of a derailment that occurred there many years ago. They say a piece of rolling stock is still in the bottom of the lake, near Mount Tabor station. I find this hard to believe, as Tabor "Lake" is really more of a pond. Does anyone know if there's any truth to this tale?

I have firsthand information for you on this topic. I am the grandson of the Rev. L.F. Nichols, who was one of the founders of the Tabor Lake Corporation and also served as its first president. Our family owned 2 cabins at The Lake for many decades and I spent every one of my childhood summers there well into my 20s. The link to my Tabor Lake "web scrapbook" is found earlier in this thread.

Here's what I've got for you:

1) The Lake is now called Powder Mill Pond because of a NJ Transit project that mistakenly called it that. It is (still) officially called Tabor Lake in its charter and that remains true to this very day. Only outsiders call it Powder Mill Pond - mainly because that's what Mapquest and other online mapping services call it. Which makes my grandfather’s catch-phrase “There’s No Place Like Tabor Lake” true in a way that I’m sure he never intended!

2) Lake Lenore is actually quite frequently (and mistakenly) referred to as "Mount Tabor Lake" and is listed as such, in error, on many mapmakers’ maps. There isn't any such place called "Mount Tabor Lake" --- it's called TABOR LAKE. Which is now known as Powder Mill Pond to the outside world.

3) The actual Powder Mill was located more towards the center of The Lake. There was a wall from that original structure that still existed in the middle of the lake - into the 80s, at least. If you knew where it was, you could swim out to it and stand on top of it. I did this many times as a kid.

4) The Locomotive you speak of did, in fact, crash into the lake. The exact year is not known but according to my father, it had to have happened prior to 1960 because he remembers it being there prior to my birth. My father, also a Tabor Lake Corporation President for several years, was the son of my grandfather (who was one of The Founders). I can tell you from viewing it firsthand as a kid - and then as a teen and then into my 20s - that you could see the entire bottom of the train with its axels and wheels clearly visible to anyone who boated along the water on top of it. This was along the shoreline where The Tree used to be. As you cross the hump of the tracks and head down the little hill to the bridge, it was just off to the right. The wheels were only about a foot or so into the water and you could touch them or hit them with a boat oar.

5) Other links for Tabor Lake History if you’re interested:

http://www.the111experience.org/TNPLTL_Issues.htm (about whether or not the roads inside the Tabor Lake property were private)

http://www.the111experience.org/indexTLHist.html ("There's No Place Like Tabor Lake" --- a history of Tabor Lake)

http://www.the111experience.org/Lake_Lenore_NJ.html (Lake Lenore, map errors, "Mount Tabor Lake")

Hope this has been helpful! My email address is [email protected] if you have any additional questions.

Bests,
Jim Ward-Nichols [Northwest NJ Native]
Lawrence, Kansas, USA

p.s. --- I found this forum because I started getting referrals from it when someone put up the link. So I took a look and thought I might be able to help you out. Nice meeting you all!

I am still not convinced there is a train or engine in Mt. Tabor Lake. As I mentioned above, I grew up in Denville 1946 to 1961. My family still owns the house near the tracks. And I was close to the railroad having spent many non school hours at Denville Tower and station with railroaders and fans. I often road the Dover Drill around Denville and east to Chatham. Happy O'Hay, an old salt from Wharton, was the usualy conductor and would regale me with stories of his watching the filming of Edison's GREAT TRAIN ROBBERY when he himself was a kid. Richard "Shine" Ike was another of the trainmen on that job along with several others. On the passenger side I knew another dozen or so train and engine service people plus there was Jimmy Morris the second trick towerman and Jack Swinson on first, Joe Monehan was a relief man and Wilbur Large was the Denville agent, later Clare Gratton and a Mr. VanOrder. Bill Spies was the maintaner and a Radler was the track forman. There were trainmasters, the Chief Electrical Engineer, the Catanary Supervisor, several dispatchers and chief dispatchers all living in Denville, all of whom I knew. Add to that the railfans I knew, some into their 70's and 80's back then. None, to my recollection ever made mention of a wrecked train in Mt. Tabor Lake or Powdermill Pond. No written histories of the railroad or the region mention it either. I have also seen Mt. Tabor Lake with very low water and not seen the hulks or parts of any railroad cars or engines. To me, so far, there is no real proof that a train is in Mt. Tabor Lake.

henry6 wrote:I have also seen Mt. Tabor Lake with very low water and not seen the hulks or parts of any railroad cars or engines. To me, so far, there is no real proof that a train is in Mt. Tabor Lake.

Is it possible that it was there but was then removed?

NHRR WTBY wrote:

henry6 wrote:I have also seen Mt. Tabor Lake with very low water and not seen the hulks or parts of any railroad cars or engines. To me, so far, there is no real proof that a train is in Mt. Tabor Lake.

Is it possible that it was there but was then removed?

It's very possible it could have been removed during the past 26 years. I wouldn’t know. Also - Tabor Lake was (and still is) a CLOSED community - for members only. If you ask ANYONE who was at The Lake prior to 1980, they will confirm this story. And not because they "heard a rumor" about it, either. They can confirm this because they saw the underbelly of it (and the 4 wheels) with their own two eyes. Again, we never knew what kind of car it was. We could only see the underside. And we don't know how long it was there NOR did we know how it got there. We just knew it was there. Because we SAW it.

Jeesh.

I have to admit that it's pretty darn annoying for someone (a total Tabor Lake outsider) to tell me that this never happened. I'm sure other Tabor Lake Alum who also saw it with their own two eyes would say to this guy, "Dude, you didn't LIVE at the lake! You wouldn’t have seen it! You wouldn’t even have known about it.” I second that.

I'm not going to debate this anymore, but I will put the contents of this amusing thread up at my Tabor Lake website next time I make an update. Old Timers at The Lake, and some of the newer folks too, will find it amusing that someone (a total outsider) actually doubts the story. They will also find the use of the term "Mt. Tabor Lake" amusing as well. If you're not going to use its correct name (which is just TABOR LAKE minus the MOUNT), you might as well call it Powder Mill Pond. You know, the name NJ Transit made up for it.

So much for spending my valuable time trying to give FIRSTHAND details on this topic to people at the "RAILROAD.NET" forum.

Well, at least I tried.

Bests,
Jim Ward-Nichols [Northwest NJ Native]
Lawrence, Kansas, USA

Sorry to have ANNOYED you, JLWN. I have been to Powder Mill Pond many times, even taken pictures there, so I am not as much of an "outsider" as you insinuate. I just told what I know and think and why. If it offends your senses or threatens you in anyway, there is nothing else I can say or do.

First off, did it occur to you that a railroad car or a Pocono has a bit more than four wheels?

You've posted here a grand total of twice - you have two strikes against you already so I'd hardly call you an expert in railroading in these halls.

The same people who claimed to have seen a railroad car in the lake have admitted that they partied and drank quite a bit back in those days. That should tell you everything anyone needs to know.

I put my money in henry6 (having known him personally) and the many legitimate sources that span the entire 20th century that mention zero, zip, nada about an underwater Pocono locomotive in the Delaware or any railroad wreck at the bottom of Tabor Lake.

So if you're annoyed because established experts disagree with your folklore, tough.

You're dealing with the big guns here. Browbeating and ad hominem attacks do nothing to establish fact and will not make you friends in this forum.

If you go so far to reprint this "amusing thread" in the Tabor Lake website, be sure to include this stinging rebuke so everyone there can see what a fool you are.

man...the "big guns" are being big jerks..
Jim never said he saw a locomotive specifically.
he said "a train" crahed into the lake.
the locomotive was probably removed right away, and a frieght car or two remained..that is probably what he saw.
everyone knows there no Pocono 4-8-4 steam locomotive in the lake..
He saw a car..by "4 wheels" he is probably talking about one truck of a boxcar, or some kind of freight car..

His testimony sounds iron-clad to me, I see no reason whatsoever to doubt him, Henry and Carlo are being big babies for some mysterious reason..I dont quite understand what their problem is..

I think we should all be thanking Jim for his first-hand account!
(thanks Jim!)
he saw a CAR in the lake..
Not being a "train guy" he probably never knew, or cared, exactly what kind of car it was..to him, it was simply "a train"..
those semantics are irrelevant..he saw some kind of "train", with "train wheels" in the lake..
I see absolutely no reason to doubt his story.

Scot

scottychaos wrote:man...the "big guns" are being big jerks..
Jim never said he saw a locomotive specifically.
he said "a train" crahed into the lake.
the locomotive was probably removed right away, and a frieght car or two remained..that is probably what he saw.
everyone knows there no Pocono 4-8-4 steam locomotive in the lake..
He saw a car..by "4 wheels" he is probably talking about one truck of a boxcar, or some kind of freight car..

His testimony sounds iron-clad to me, I see no reason whatsoever to doubt him, Henry and Carlo are being big babies for some mysterious reason..I dont quite understand what their problem is..

I think we should all be thanking Jim for his first-hand account!
(thanks Jim!)
he saw a CAR in the lake..
Not being a "train guy" he probably never knew, or cared, exactly what kind of car it was..to him, it was simply "a train"..
those semantics are irrelevant..he saw some kind of "train", with "train wheels" in the lake..
I see absolutely no reason to doubt his story.

Scot

Scot,

I agree with you here! Lay off the poor guy and quit bashing him! These forums are not for bashing. It is amazing how many people older then me act like children in here...

I tried to dig deeper into things last night but got no further than that there was no train wreck. However, after careful thought I believe that since Mt. Tabor Lake was an ice pond there probably was an ice house that either burned or collapsed. What has been reportedly seen in the lake is, therefore, probably not a "railroad" car so much as it might be a four wheel cart or wagon or platform or whatever that was involved in the ice building.

And by the way Scotty, I am not being a cry baby but rather defending myself against false insinuations and accusations that were uncalled for. Question my information but do not attack me personally on the basis of integrety or purpose.

henry6 wrote:I tried to dig deeper into things last night

[SNIP]

Dear Tabor Lake Outsider,

It's VERY clear that you know next to nothing about the real history of Tabor Lake. You are an outsider trying to get news about a place that has always been a private, members-only community. For nearly 70 years. That's the first thing you're overlooking. The second thing that you're still unbelievably overlooking is the fact that I'm giving you FIRSTHAND information. Not conjecture. Not rumor. Not something I found from a search on the internet.

Again: We could see all four wheels and from the visible underside it was CLEARLY the length of a full car. Period. I already said we didn't know what type of car it was, but it was absolutely the length of a normal train car. You must understand - the trains go right past The Lake. In full view. Each and every day, multiple times per day. So we all knew how long a "normal" train car was.

I understand that you're frustrated, but please stop contradicting an eye-witness. I'm not the only person who knew about this. Anyone at The Lake prior to the early 80s would be able to tell you the exact same story.

And finally, could you please stop calling it MOUNT Tabor Lake? That's not its name. I don't care what any map might say or how many different names the general public has for it. Its name is Tabor Lake. Not MOUNT Tabor Lake or even NJ Transit's made-up name for it (Powder Mill Pond). So could you at least start calling it by its REAL name? It would give you more credibility if you continue to investigate this with people who are still at The Lake. The fact that you're calling it TABOR LAKE might impress them. It will at least let them know that you've done some upfront research.

Best of luck,
Jim Ward-Nichols [Northwest NJ Native]
Lawrence, Kansas, USA

p.s. --- The links that have already been provided will help you get a better understanding of The Lake's unique history. As for this thread, this really is my LAST reply. I don't have time to keep arguing this with you. And it's SO annoying, quite frankly. Again, best of luck with your search. Don't give up!

Guys, let's have some decorum here! This thread has the distinction of being the only one on this forum I've ever had to comment on because it was getting too angry. So, let's cool it.
Jim reported he saw a car with 4 wheels in the lake. Henry says there was no locomotive in the lake. No contradiction there. For that matter, Jim doesn't sound like a railfan, and wasn't trying to accurately or exactly describe what he observed in railroad terms.
We've probably scared him off, but if he returns, let's treat Jim with some civilty.

Meanwhile anyone interested in looking for submerged remains of railroad equipment on the former Erie Lackawanna can check the creek that ran by the abandoned eastbound hump embankment at the Marion Ohio yard for pieces of the Southern Railway boxcar that went in the drink there back around 1973. There were also a couple of old automobile batteries and kitchen appliances in the area.

henry6 wrote: I often road the Dover Drill around Denville and east to Chatham. Happy O'Hay, an old salt from Wharton, was the usualy conductor and would regale me with stories of his watching the filming of Edison's GREAT TRAIN ROBBERY when he himself was a kid. Richard "Shine" Ike was another of the trainmen on that job along with several others. On the passenger side I knew another dozen or so train and engine service people plus there was Jimmy Morris the second trick towerman and Jack Swinson on first, Joe Monehan was a relief man

Joe Monahan still lives in Denville; he's getting up there in years but still enjoys telling stories, such as the one when he was working at Dover Tower and it caught on fire and the Dispatcher didn't want him to leave.

I grew up at the lake too.The story I got is that there was a ice house on the far side of the lake in the 20's or 30's until it burned down.The train wheels that I have seen many times are supposed to be an overturned ice cart that was used to move the ice from the house to the train.Most of it is sunk in the mud.I think the original train tracks where on the other side of where they are now.There is an old concrete structure that we called the tress on the other side of the train bridge.The date on the bridge is 1909.I was told this was a trolley tressel.Sorry for rambling,I was looking for pic of Erie Lackawanna cabooses when I found this thread.Just thought I'd give another story on this.No one will ever know for sure...