• E/F-unit body compared to MP36

  • Discussion of Electro-Motive locomotive products and technology, past and present. Official web site can be found here: http://www.emdiesels.com/.
Discussion of Electro-Motive locomotive products and technology, past and present. Official web site can be found here: http://www.emdiesels.com/.

Moderator: GOLDEN-ARM

  by Allen Hazen
 
I was rereading the article in the March 2008 "Railfan & Railroad" about MotivePower's MP36bbb (bbb = blahblahblah: there are numerous variants) commuter locomotives. (They have EMD engines, and EMD seems willing to support Wabtec-MotivePower's efforts: a way of selling commuter locomotives that are perhaps half EMD by value without designing their own. So even if I WEREN'T comparing the design to some "classic" EMDs I wouldn't feel too bad about posting to this forum! (Grin!)) The article describes them as having "semi-monocoque" carbodies: the side walls are doing stuctural work; they aren't just "cowl" units. (Good thing: the design is already excessively heavy, and roadswitcher designs need heavy frames, as witnessed by the extra framing Santa Fe had to put on its CF-7.) There are a couple of photos in the article of units under construction, and the framing looked as if it was very different in design from the sort of truss frame on an E or F unit. The classic carbody truss frame had a mixture of vertical and diagonal elements, just like the frame of a truss bridge. (*) The MP36 seems to have mainly verticals: there is a diagonal in the "cell" right behind the cab and another at the extreme rear of the unit, but between these it looks as if the platform and the rail at the roofline are connected only by a "ladder" of verticals. I was taught that triangles were better for forming a rigid structure than rectangles (explaining the presence of diagonal elements in typical truss forms), so I was surprised by this. At a GUESS (note: guess-- this is speculation by a non-professional, on the basis of what was in the article) this means that the side walls of an MP36 are designed to carry a smaller propoertion of thetotal load than those of an E or F. Anybody here know more?

(*) There was a photo-- I think in the F-unit article in "R&R" a few months ago-- showing TA locomotives for the Rock Island under construction. The arrangement of vertical and diagonal elements in their frames was much more simple and regular than that in later F units. At a GUESS, the TA was built with a "first draft" truss design, and the F-unit's more complicated structure was the result of more careful analysis, putting elements of the truss structure in exactly the places needed, given the weight distribution of the unit. (Obviously a locomotive used in multiple unit freight lashups would be exposed to greater stresses than one designed for single-unit use on lightweight passenger trains, so it would make sense to re-do the stress analysis as part of the process of transforming the T into the FT!) ... On the basis of Preston Cook's sketches in (I think) the same F-unit article, it looks as if the FP-7/9 and FL-9 truss frames were designed by plugging additional cells into basic F unit design. Which might not have produced quite the optimal structure, but doubtless simplified the design and construction process: much of the structure of these longer units seems to be in common with the standard F design.

(I am posting a shorter version to the "other builders" forum.)
PS: The December 2008 "R&R" has arrived in Melbourne. If I have any comments after I've had a chance to read part 3 of the E-unit article I will post them in a few days.
  by FCP503
 
Allen Hazen wrote: ...roadswitcher designs need heavy frames, as witnessed by the extra framing Santa Fe had to put on its CF-7...
If you look at an E or F unit as having an above the frame "truss bridge", then what Cleburne shops did was to replace that with a below the frame "plate girder bridge." In both cases these are load bearing members. The type of service was not at issue. After all an ABBA set of F units will have extremely high frame stresses as well
  by v8interceptor
 
Allen Hazen wrote:I was rereading the article in the March 2008 "Railfan & Railroad" about MotivePower's MP36bbb (bbb = blahblahblah: there are numerous variants) commuter locomotives. (They have EMD engines, and EMD seems willing to support Wabtec-MotivePower's efforts: a way of selling commuter locomotives that are perhaps half EMD by value without designing their own. So even if I WEREN'T comparing the design to some "classic" EMDs I wouldn't feel too bad about posting to this forum! (Grin!)) The article describes them as having "semi-monocoque" carbodies: the side walls are doing stuctural work; they aren't just "cowl" units. (Good thing: the design is already excessively heavy, and roadswitcher designs need heavy frames, as witnessed by the extra framing Santa Fe had to put on its CF-7.) There are a couple of photos in the article of units under construction, and the framing looked as if it was very different in design from the sort of truss frame on an E or F unit. The classic carbody truss frame had a mixture of vertical and diagonal elements, just like the frame of a truss bridge. (*) The MP36 seems to have mainly verticals: there is a diagonal in the "cell" right behind the cab and another at the extreme rear of the unit, but between these it looks as if the platform and the rail at the roofline are connected only by a "ladder" of verticals. I was taught that triangles were better for forming a rigid structure than rectangles (explaining the presence of diagonal elements in typical truss forms), so I was surprised by this. At a GUESS (note: guess-- this is speculation by a non-professional, on the basis of what was in the article) this means that the side walls of an MP36 are designed to carry a smaller propoertion of thetotal load than those of an E or F. Anybody here know more?

(*) There was a photo-- I think in the F-unit article in "R&R" a few months ago-- showing TA locomotives for the Rock Island under construction. The arrangement of vertical and diagonal elements in their frames was much more simple and regular than that in later F units. At a GUESS, the TA was built with a "first draft" truss design, and the F-unit's more complicated structure was the result of more careful analysis, putting elements of the truss structure in exactly the places needed, given the weight distribution of the unit. (Obviously a locomotive used in multiple unit freight lashups would be exposed to greater stresses than one designed for single-unit use on lightweight passenger trains, so it would make sense to re-do the stress analysis as part of the process of transforming the T into the FT!) ... On the basis of Preston Cook's sketches in (I think) the same F-unit article, it looks as if the FP-7/9 and FL-9 truss frames were designed by plugging additional cells into basic F unit design. Which might not have produced quite the optimal structure, but doubtless simplified the design and construction process: much of the structure of these longer units seems to be in common with the standard F design.

(I am posting a shorter version to the "other builders" forum.)
PS: The December 2008 "R&R" has arrived in Melbourne. If I have any comments after I've had a chance to read part 3 of the E-unit article I will post them in a few days.
If I'm not mistaken it is possible with the MP series units to lift off the Monocoque body to service the engine and other systesms and this could not be done with E and F type units...
  by mxdata
 
Allen, your observation is basically correct. A semi-monocoque construction has a lighter underframe than the constant section designs usually used on freight locomotives, and additional support is provided by the side structure. The MP36/MP40 and the F40PH family both use semi-monocoque construction. If you had a photo of an F40PH underframe upside down by itself on the shop floor at EMD during piping and cabling, sitting next to a constant section underframe for a GP40-2 or GP50, the difference would be quite apparent. The side structure of the F40PH is carried up to the top of the "barn doors" on the sides, the roof hatches with fans, radiators, and DB are separate structures that bolt down to the sides.

MX
  by Allen Hazen
 
Thank you for your replies!
I'm feeling fairly confused. I would think that if the side framing is to provide significant structural support, it would have to be pretty rigidly connected to the underframe, and I would have thought that that would make removing it difficult: so I am surprised by V8interceptor's impression that the whole "house" can be lifted off the "foundations": that sounds like hood or cowl construction. I'm also surprised (I'm not doubting you, I'm just surprised!) by MX's statement that the F40PH family had "semi-monocoque" bodies, as I had always been under the impression that they (like the FP45, F45, SDP40F and F40C) were cowl units. The whole area is getting more and more mysterious to me!
FCP503's analogy of the CF-7 with a "plate girder bridge" seems apt. As for type of service, I agree with what you say: I only mentioned type of service because I thought that perhaps the TA units (built in 1937) might have needed somewhat less robust structures than Fs (or CFs).
---
And, apologies to FP-7/FL-9 friends: I looked at the drawings in Preston Cook's F-unit article (July 2008 "R&R") again this morning, and I think my description of their truss frame designs as being derived from standard F-unit design simply by inserting more plugs is a bit unfair. The center of the truss (roughly the engine compartment) does seem to be similar in all three lengths of F, but the lengthening (between the engine compartment and the cab in the FP-7/9, and additionally at the extreme rear of the unit in the FL-9) is more complicated than just inserting cells.
  by FCP503
 
v8interceptor wrote:If I'm not mistaken it is possible with the MP series units to lift off the Monocoque body to service the engine and other systesms and this could not be done with E and F type units...
E and F units have a removable hatch on the roof to allow major components to be lifted out (engine, generator etc)

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