Leaving Jamaica a few 100 ft (after leaving the underpass) heading railroad east on the Atlantic branch I noticed a white light dwarf signal. Did this replace a position light signal or is it a new signal for a speed restriction? Thank you.
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Dwarf signal Atlantic Branch
- Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.
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The signal you are referring to (according to your description), would be Hall towers exit signal on #2 Atlantic. It is a pedistal type sinal, not a dwarf or low home type signal. This signal did replace the large position light signal that was located there at one time...not too long ago. This signal is now used to govern trains entering what we call 261/410 territory which would be automatic signalling with speed control and NO wayside signals.
For years I thought that pedestal signals were a fancier type of dwarf signal. They mislead you with their 2 bulb aspects, similar to dwarfs. It wasn't 'til I found an old chart of Pennsy signals that I learned that pedestals show the same aspects as "high" 3 bulb signals. What a surprise. You can't make assumptions; ya' gotta know the facts............. 
Speaking of which: EngineerBob can you explain the difference between rule 261 and 410? I assume that 261 refers to reverse movements WITH wayside signals, and that 410 is reverse movements WITHOUT wayside signals. Is this right, or is there more to it?
Speaking of which: EngineerBob can you explain the difference between rule 261 and 410? I assume that 261 refers to reverse movements WITH wayside signals, and that 410 is reverse movements WITHOUT wayside signals. Is this right, or is there more to it?
Besides on the Atlantic Branch, do pedestal and wayside signals exist on other parts of the system?
What type of signals are used in the tunnel between Jamaica and Flatbush Av?
What type of signals are used in the tunnel between Jamaica and Flatbush Av?
First Head Ends Answer:
Rule 261 basically amounts to a train can be operated on any track without worrying about opposing (trains coming in the other direction) on the same track. The signals "protect" opposing movements on the same track. Maybe the rule right from the LIRR BoR can explain it a little better: "On portions of the railroad and on tracks specified in the timetable, trains will be governed by block signals whose indications will supercede the superiority of trains for both opposing and following movements on the same track."
Conversley, Rule 251 basically amounts to a train can be operated only in the same direction on the same track. Opposing movements can happen, as there is no signals to protect against it...but that opens up another whole set of rules!!!! Rule 251 from the LIRR BoR: "On portions of the railroad and on tracks specified in the timetable, trains will run with reference to other trains in the same direction by block signals whose indications will supercede the superiority of trains".
Rule 410 is automatic block signaling without fixed wayside signals.
Rule 409 is automatic block signaling with fixed block or interlocking signals.
Of course, it's a little more involved that what I am able to type and explain somewhat clearly.
Rule 261 basically amounts to a train can be operated on any track without worrying about opposing (trains coming in the other direction) on the same track. The signals "protect" opposing movements on the same track. Maybe the rule right from the LIRR BoR can explain it a little better: "On portions of the railroad and on tracks specified in the timetable, trains will be governed by block signals whose indications will supercede the superiority of trains for both opposing and following movements on the same track."
Conversley, Rule 251 basically amounts to a train can be operated only in the same direction on the same track. Opposing movements can happen, as there is no signals to protect against it...but that opens up another whole set of rules!!!! Rule 251 from the LIRR BoR: "On portions of the railroad and on tracks specified in the timetable, trains will run with reference to other trains in the same direction by block signals whose indications will supercede the superiority of trains".
Rule 410 is automatic block signaling without fixed wayside signals.
Rule 409 is automatic block signaling with fixed block or interlocking signals.
Of course, it's a little more involved that what I am able to type and explain somewhat clearly.
Now for RC '75:
Sure, pedistal type signals and wayside signals still do exist on many parts of the railroad. Keep in mind though that the pedistal type signals are not normally used on the wayside EXCEPT at interlockings. So chances are if you see a pedistal type signal, it's an interlocking signal. Whats an interlocking signal....it's a signal that can display STOP as it's most restrictive aspect. Automatic signals can only display stop and proceed as it's most restictive aspect. Where there are automatic wayside signals present you'll find the large 3-light signals. Slowly, the railroad is doing away with wayside signals little by little. Now to really confuse you, on some parts of the railroad, there is fixed wayside signals in one direction and NONE when travelling on the same track in the other direction. This is where the above mentioned 251/261 and 409/410 come into play. This is true on the mainline between Jay and Harold as an example.
Up until about a two years ago, there were color light automatic block signals in the Atlantic tunnels between ENY and Dunton. Those are now gone and it is 261/410 (see above post) in both directions on both tracks. At ENY interlocking there are color light INTERLOCKING signals. West of ENY, there is a combination of color light (in the tunnels) and 3-light position light automatic signals (on the viaduct), when travelling "normally" (East on 2, West on 1). At Brook interlocking there is a combination of color light and low home signals.
Any other questions feel free to ask! Maybe I should do a signal class!!
Sure, pedistal type signals and wayside signals still do exist on many parts of the railroad. Keep in mind though that the pedistal type signals are not normally used on the wayside EXCEPT at interlockings. So chances are if you see a pedistal type signal, it's an interlocking signal. Whats an interlocking signal....it's a signal that can display STOP as it's most restrictive aspect. Automatic signals can only display stop and proceed as it's most restictive aspect. Where there are automatic wayside signals present you'll find the large 3-light signals. Slowly, the railroad is doing away with wayside signals little by little. Now to really confuse you, on some parts of the railroad, there is fixed wayside signals in one direction and NONE when travelling on the same track in the other direction. This is where the above mentioned 251/261 and 409/410 come into play. This is true on the mainline between Jay and Harold as an example.
Up until about a two years ago, there were color light automatic block signals in the Atlantic tunnels between ENY and Dunton. Those are now gone and it is 261/410 (see above post) in both directions on both tracks. At ENY interlocking there are color light INTERLOCKING signals. West of ENY, there is a combination of color light (in the tunnels) and 3-light position light automatic signals (on the viaduct), when travelling "normally" (East on 2, West on 1). At Brook interlocking there is a combination of color light and low home signals.
Any other questions feel free to ask! Maybe I should do a signal class!!
Well EngineerBob, let me be the first one to sign up if you ever do! Thanks for the good info. :D
Bob, you may want to mention that 410 territory does not have wayside signals because of ASC being in place. The 400 rules pertain to coded track and cab signals, making the wayside signals unnecessary.
BTW, Bob, if you are still on the Harold Protect, could you give it a little more throttle when you pass Metropolitan Ave.?
I overslept this morning and didn’t get up until 0630.
JJ Earl
BTW, Bob, if you are still on the Harold Protect, could you give it a little more throttle when you pass Metropolitan Ave.?
I overslept this morning and didn’t get up until 0630.
JJ Earl
JJ, nice to see your still hanging 'round these parts.
I was just thinking about LIRR signalling systems the other day. I noticed how there is 'transit-style' signalling in the tunnels of Atlantic Avenue (green, yellow, red aspects ala an interlocking signal). But also noticed the dwarf NORAC signals near Brook tower (as discussed by LIengineerBob).
I was just thinking about LIRR signalling systems the other day. I noticed how there is 'transit-style' signalling in the tunnels of Atlantic Avenue (green, yellow, red aspects ala an interlocking signal). But also noticed the dwarf NORAC signals near Brook tower (as discussed by LIengineerBob).
There are "Transit style" signals in the tunnels due to space restrictions.
JJ Earl
JJ Earl
BMT man writes>>JJ, nice to see your still hanging 'round these parts.
Actually, Doug, We are supposed to close on the first.
If that happens, then I'll be the dukeohx
JJ Earl
Actually, Doug, We are supposed to close on the first.
If that happens, then I'll be the dukeohx
JJ Earl
Sorry about the lack of noise in the mornings JJ...I have had only one of the protect engines for the past few weeks. They finally decided to overhaul them one at a time, so they can have at least one still in service. Right now the 102 is being rebuilt/overhauled, so that leaves the 104 only. Actually for about 10 days I was using the 157, as both were OOS. I'll try a little better on Monday!
So all of the color aspect signals in the Atlantic Av. tunnel follow NORAC rules? Even the dwarf color signals?
The color light signals in the Atlantic tunnels do not follow NORAC rules. NORAC color light signals can display a more wide variety of aspects than the ones in the Atlantic tunnels. Not to say that they cannot be changed, but currently, they do not adhere to NORAC rules.