Cardinal discussion

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:If West Virginia isn't willing to pay the full (or a significant portion of the) operating costs for the Cardinal maybe it shouldn't exist. Why should people from California or Texas who will never ride it pay for it? It's hardly a more national train than the Pennsylvanian. We do have the LSL and CL for Chicago-NEC travel.

I recall on this board that the Cardinal is a legacy from late Senator Byrd. If WV steps up and funds its share, will Ohio? Probably not. Virginia might, given its commitment to passenger rail.

I just received a notice from AAPRCO's Amtrak liaison officer, which says that Amtrak advises:

Effective 3/29/2018, train 50 will operate from CHI to WAS only, until further notice.
Effective 4/01/2018, train 51 will operate from WAS to CHI only, until further notice.

No reason was given for the cutback of service on the Northeast Corridor. This would allow Amtrak to assign Superliner equipment to the Cardinal, but I don't know if they intend to do that. I have a MOUNT VERNON movement from CHI to WAS on train 50 during the third week of June, so this operating change should not adversely effect me.

This is most likely part of the "You enjoyed it so much the 1st time, we're bringing back the Sequel: Summer of Hell Part 2! This time... the track numbers are higher!"

Most likely for the "Summer of Hell" round 2 at NY Penn.

While driven by NYP trackwork, would they take advantage of the likely months' long ops from WAS to make it a superliner train?

Highly unlikely. All Superliners needed for summer crushes.

Ultimately, this train would make a lot of sense to be "Skeena'ed". For those not familiar, Via once had an overnight train called the Skeena running from Jasper to Prince Rupert. A few years back they decided to drop the sleepers, pause overnight at Prince George, and continue on the next day.

Given that Cardinal has heavy loads Cinci-Chicago and NYP-Charleston, it might make sense to equip it with long distance coaches only, drop the bag and sleeper, and pause overnight somewhere like Ashland.

Tadman said:

A few years back they decided to drop the sleepers, pause overnight at Prince George, and continue on the next day.

I'd rather stay in the sleeper (meals included) than have to book a hotel and pay for meals.

Cincinnati would be a fair layover if the westbound stays on the same schedule leaving NY. Stopping further east would add too much delay reaching cities that could be served at "reasonable" after midnight hours. Passengers could have the option of getting off when the train arrived or at a reasonable "check out" time later in the morning. But that would delay the Indy to Chicago passengers. An earlier start eastbound would cut short the day in Chicago but provide a better Cincinnati arrival time.

But I would not want to see sleepers removed from the train. To provide that kind of service the train would need to stop much earlier in the night (10pm) and hold long enough that passengers could leave, get a reasonable night's sleep and return before the train left again. Five extra hours in Cincinnati would not harm the service too much ... a 10 hour layover would be bad.

The biggest losers would be the overnight coach customers. The more the train moves the better.

I'd say: ideally, Amtrak would work to decrease trip times between NY/DC and Chicago--at least to what they were in the 1960s--so that there could be an overnight train leaving in the evening and arriving in the morning, at the start of the workday, that could actually attract riders going between those city pairs and not just mostly people getting on or off at intermediate stops. NY/DC-Chicago should be a huge market for Amtrak.

I agree, and to do that Amtrak needs its own corridor. My family is currently on 51(9) WAS-CHI on their way to MSP with my two 8-year-old nephews, and I can’t imagine how much they all need to be off!

Here's another alternative for what you both proposed.
Terminate the Cardinal at Washington, the NEC doesn't need the Cardinal, it has Acela and the Northeast Regionals as well as NJT and SEPTA. Cardinal's purpose is to serve West Virginia, the Ohio River Valley and Indianapolis. Washington to Chicago has the more direct Capitol Limited which should run semi-express. New York has the Lake Shore Limited to Chicago via Albany, Buffalo and Cleveland that should be made semi-express by only stopping at major stations. Upstate New York has the Empire Service for the local stuff but perhaps they could add a Buffalo to Chicago Regional Service for the local stops there. Eliminate the Keystone New York to Pittsburgh and add the Broadway Limited New York to Chicago stopping only at major stations like Philly, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, Wheeling, etc. Make the Keystone Service Philly to Wheeling. If you need to travel NYC to a local stop in PA, change trains in Philadelphia.
Shortens time for all routes and you may get more patronage.

R&DB wrote:Here's another alternative for what you both proposed.

Oof. Let's address these one by one.

R&DB wrote:Terminate the Cardinal at Washington, the NEC doesn't need the Cardinal, it has Acela and the Northeast Regionals as well as NJT and SEPTA. Cardinal's purpose is to serve West Virginia, the Ohio River Valley and Indianapolis.

Agreed in theory, though in practice it also serves a big NYC-Charleston market. Let's come back to that.

R&DB wrote:Washington to Chicago has the more direct Capitol Limited which should run semi-express. New York has the Lake Shore Limited to Chicago via Albany, Buffalo and Cleveland that should be made semi-express by only stopping at major stations.

They already run semi-express. Which stations do you suggest dropping? There aren't many that can be dropped without entire states losing service.

R&DB wrote:Upstate New York has the Empire Service for the local stuff but perhaps they could add a Buffalo to Chicago Regional Service for the local stops there.

How about we just add a second LSL frequency with the same stations, but off by about 12 hours? Like I said, there aren't that many stations that can come out of the schedule.

R&DB wrote:Eliminate the Keystone New York to Pittsburgh

Nope, Pennsylvania funds Keystone Service NYC-PHL-HAR and I believe they also help fund the Pennsylvanian NYC-PHL-HAR-PGH. Amtrak can't really mess with them, and doesn't want to.

R&DB wrote:...and add the Broadway Limited New York to Chicago stopping only at major stations like Philly, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, Wheeling, etc.

But why? If someone wants to get from NYC to Chicago in a hurry, they fly or drive. Smaller-town station stops don't take up that much time in the grand scheme, and add a surprising amount of ridership even beyond the Congressional mandate to serve rural communities. Also, since when is Wheeling a major city?

R&DB wrote:Make the Keystone Service Philly to Wheeling. If you need to travel NYC to a local stop in PA, change trains in Philadelphia.

But why should western Pennsylvania lose its NYC connection?

R&DB wrote:Shortens time for all routes and you may get more patronage.

I think you'd lose a lot of patronage, because you're disconnecting large cities (HAR, PGH) from their single seat ride to the biggest destination (NYC) on the Amtrak system.

If West Virginia can get its act together (severe drought in state budget) and work with Virginia, NS, and the Buckingham Branch, it could consider funding a regional NYC-Charleston. I think it would be popular, whether or not the Cardinal goes daily or is cut back to Washington.

Mtuandrew wrote:

They already run semi-express. Which stations do you suggest dropping?

Didn't know that, correction accepted.

Nope, Pennsylvania funds Keystone Service NYC-PHL-HAR and I believe they also help fund the Pennsylvanian NYC-PHL-HAR-PGH. Amtrak can't really mess with them, and doesn't want to.

My bad. I confused Keystone for Pennsylvanian. Better to extend Pennsyvanian to Chicago and run semi-express. Then run Keystone Service Philly to Pittsburgh.

But why? If someone wants to get from NYC to Chicago in a hurry, they fly or drive.

Some people do not fly. (Like myself, and I don't like driving more than 2 hours)

Also, since when is Wheeling a major city?

Granted. Leave that to the Capitol Limited.

I think you'd lose a lot of patronage, because you're disconnecting large cities (HAR, PGH) from their single seat ride to the biggest destination (NYC) on the Amtrak system.

If West Virginia can get its act together (severe drought in state budget) and work with Virginia, NS, and the Buckingham Branch, it could consider funding a regional NYC-Charleston. I think it would be popular, whether or not the Cardinal goes daily or is cut back to Washington.

HAR and PGH would still have single seat rides to NYC. Just the smaller stops would have to change in PHI. But I totally agree with you about West Virginia.

The other thought I had was by cutting back Cardinal to Washington would free up 6 slots a week into NYP.

Thanks for your discussion and input.

A stand-alone Broadway Limited (aka Three Rivers) would be great! I think Amtrak is toying with through cars between the Pennsylvanian and the Capitol Limited, which would be a good first step.

I’m not opposed to cutting back the Cardinal to DC. In past posts, I’ve suggested swapping the Cap’s consist with the Card’s. It would mean adding a PGH-NYC section onto the Cap, cutting the Card to CHI-WAS, and making the Card a daily Superliner train. Honestly, I think Amtrak would have enough cars to make this work by shuffling new sleeper cars into the current Hoosier, Cardinal, Capitol Limited, and Pennsylvanian consists.