Cannonball 2004 - The Return of the 'Cannonball Badge'

Hey Joe,
Paul does not like our picture!!!!
Remember he is IAM!!!!!!
He calls us kiddies lolol I like that
Chris

I knew I should've gotten up early!

Paul has a point. Cannonball is a common name in railroading. In addition to Petticoat Junction, several other railroads ran trains with the name "Cannonball". The July 1956 Official Guide of Railways and Steam Navigation Lines shows 3 railroads with Cannonballs. The Wabash Cannon Ball(trains #4 and #1), The Norfolk and Western Cannon Ball(#21 and 22 ran with sleepers) and the Long Island Railroad. An interesting note, The LIRR ran the Cannon Ball(#24) and The Advance Cannon Ball (#16)over the Central Branch with Parlor Cars thru August 31st.

The point I am trying to make is that while the LIRR has always had a Cannon Ball, there are names that would be better associated with the region's history especially since the LIRR only runs one name train. My vote is Sunrise Special.

BTW the correct spelling is "Cannon Ball" not Cannonball.

I love you Mantone.
BTW, I did like the picture and I like the LIRR Keystones on the marque. I am not sure what my membership in the I.A. of M. has to do with anything but no harm no foul. And yes, Chris, I have children older then you, No offence to your youth, but if you can't remember orange and grey, oh well. :D

Paul:

Nice job on the "Sunrise Special" tender logo!

ALL Montauk trains, from the late 1920s prior to the opening of the "K4 bridge" over Shinnecock Canal in 1931 were pulled by G5s locomotives.

If the train consisted of 12 cars or more, LIRR edict said they had to be doubled with two (2) G5s locomotives.

K4s were not allowed on the rickety trestle over the canal prior to the installation of the heavier trestle.

Hence, the "Sunrise Special" herald was on a G5s and never on a K2 or K4.

Here are two G5s, #31 and #? doubling Montauk train #12 eastbound through C.I. around 1930. A prime example of doubling a Montauk train over 12 cars in length.

P.S. They're headed for the Manorville branch, BTW.


Dave Keller

Dave...I have a drawing of the 21 in the "SS" livery, looks very official to me and it states that the K4 1589 was asigned to the 'Special in 1927. The drawing is in Beebe's book "The Trains We Rode". Check for your self.

Paul - a bit OT, but I have to ask - IAM, Redlands, Cali. Which one of the big Aerospace contractors over there are you at?

(Somewhat less OT too - they were flying F-18s over Jones Beach the other day. My first thought was WHY THE HECK weren't they flying Tomcats?!?! It's LI...Grumman...Duh. Am I the only one who notices those 'anytime, baby' Tomcat stickers on cars all over the place here? )

Hi There

I'm new to this forum. I'm an Asst Conductor for the LIRR and I was the Brakeman for the Cannon Ball this past Friday. I was actually amazed because it was the first time that I have ever seen a 12-car double-decker. It wasn't easy to operate becasue besides from not being able to fit at Hunterspoint and Jamaica, we also had to make double stops at all of the stations out to Montauk. I was told by management that 12 cars are the maximum that they would run, and trust me, we could have had 14 cars, and there still would have been people standing! So you'll probably never see a train made up of more than 12 cars and more than two locos. It sure was fun working that train. I hope to work it again this Friday.

Paul:

I hate to say this, but the info in Beebe's book is incorrect.

People do get the wrong info sometimes and pass it along. Just because it is in print does not make it true! (Look at the internet!)

The one thing to remember is this: K4s WERE NOT allowed over the old, rickety Shinnecock Canal trestle.

They were only allowed over the replacement bridge put in place in 1931.

To get to Montauk, one had to go over this trestle.

Therefore . . .NO K4s to Montauk prior to 1931.

Dave Keller

P.S. If someone wrote that the K4s ran on the O.B. branch, we would all know that was bogus. Same idea here! It's just that many people are not aware of the bridge, weight issue, while most people are aware of the bridge, curve, weight issue on the O.B. branch! DK

Mr. Nasadowski I work do not work in the aerospace industry. Remember that the IAMAW started on the B&O railroad back in the 1880s. I am a District 19 guy (railroad) working for the Big Yellow Brick at West Colton. Dave Keller? The drawing in Beebe;s book is from the Smithonian. I am not testifying to the accuracy of Mssrs Beebe & Claig. (I know better). I will try to contact Smithonian and see if I can obtain a copy. I would like to have one anyway.

Hi Paul:

Look in the back of Ron Ziel's "Steel Rails to the Sunrise."

There you will find a terrifc drawing of an articulated LIRR steam locomotive.

It's a great, detailed drawing, but the locomotive never existed.

That's somewhat of the point I was trying to make. Perhaps someone thought it would look cool to draw the K4 in "Sunrise Special" service! (I couldn't imagine the PRR allowing the LIRR to paint something other than "Pennsylvania" across one of their tenders, seeing how strict and finicky they reportedly were according to all my "old-timer" friends.)

While that locomotive may have been a K4s and used on the LIRR (I'd have to check my roster of Pennsy equipment leased to the LIRR) it was not allowed over the bridge.

Who knows . . .Perhaps there were plans in the works at the time to allow this, and the bridge issue wasn't considered at first.

Then again, perhaps they were planning on the bridge being replaced sooner and that may have been a prototype drawing.

There are all sorts of possible answers for the rendering of that drawing.

Now . . . .if anyone has a photograph (untouched, I might add) of the K4 posed at, say, Southampton, or Montauk in 1927, then I will eat my proverbial straw hat and report the information to my LIRR "factual source!"

Let me know what you find out, but I doubt the Smithsonian would know about the LIRR's bridge/weight problem of that time.

But one never knows, do one?

Dave Keller

One thing I do not understand, how come a single K4 was not allowed on the bridge but two G5's where? From photos of the bridge it looks like two G5's would fit comfortably on the span at the same time. With the G5's weighing in at 237,000lbs each two of them would be well over the 309,000lbs of a K4. Would it be that the weight of the K4 would be more concentrated on a smaller area?

Roger

Don't know!

Good point.

Any PE's (professional engineers) in the forum? If so, let's hear your explanation from a structural standpoint.

Is it anything along the lines of soldiers marching and then breaking out of step when they cross a bridge for more even distribution of weight?

Dave Keller

Thank you for the photo of this sumer's first Cannon Ball with Hamptons Reserve service. It is good to see the Cannon Ball tradition maintained, as well as may be expected, in 2004.

To be honest, I still prefer these two Cannon Ball(s) ...

The pre-1968 all heavyweight parlor cars Cannon Ball with open platform observation SEATUKET on the rear:



The late 1960s - mid 1970s all lightweight "parlor cars" Cannon Ball with observation APAQUOGUE on the rear:



Surely the biggest rolling party in the Empire State on a Friday afternoon and early evening between Memorial Day and Labor Day weekends.