Can you run a big 6 axle unit long Hood forward?

HoggerKen, I feel your pain. We use units with conventional style control stands (GP 38's) They suck for running in reverse, but when you work a local and only have one unit to use there is nothing you can do. Turning the seat 180 degrees isn't any help. The seat back gets in the way of the throttle, and you still have to look back to see the speedomoter. My neck hurts right now from running today. I like using mirrors for switching and am ok with using them over crossings at slow switching speeds but am not too comfortable with relying on them for anything else.

the Geeps I use have their speedometer mounted up inbetween the engineers window and the right middle window. Whats great about it, is that at night, the speed and the cab signal is reflected in window of the door behind the engineers seat, so you can look out, and not have to run arond to see how fast, what cab signal you got, etc etc.

I can't turn my chair around on a Geep either - the seat back just gets in the way. I leave it facing forward, but sit sideways with my back against the window. What helps, epsecially in the summer is side windows without any stoppers, so you can put them where ever you want, centered on your back, and not have them only go half way.

roadster wrote:I have had the unfortunate opportunity to operate an NS -9 long hood forward and it is not an ergonomic pratice. While the control stand is a bit further away from the seat, you are still sitting with your back against the window looking past your left shoulder,.

If your sitting with your back against the window, your doing it by choice. I am on NS Dash 9's and ES44's on a weekly basis and i have yet to have one where the seat cannot be slid all the forward then spun 180 degrees giving you the same ergonomics as running short hood forward. Don't fault the locomotive because you did'nt bother to take the time to adjust the seat.

roadster wrote:and unless your only 5' tall your knees still contact the control stand..

I am 6'5 and have no issue. Because as i mentioned above, i am not facing the control stand. I am facing the back wall of the locomotive. Once again, if you don't bother to adjust the seat, you really can't complain. There are plenty of times even when running short hood forward that i sit at an angle to the control stand. I know it forces your head to be slightly turned off center, but personally, i have no issue with it. The advantage for me is i can see where im going and the gauges without turning my head, i only need to move my eyes.

roadster wrote:To add to the fun, the GE -9 radiators overhang severely obstructs your view of the track ahead. This is an antiquated practice that needs to be abolished for safety's sake.

Agreed. The wings make visibility horrible. But it's unlikley the practice will ever be abolished unless they ever get to one person crews. The argument will always be there is no issue if both crew members are doing their jobs.

So you face the long hood feet first, the controls now operated by your right hand in reverse direction than as designed, and your gauges are now over your right shoulder. Yea, thats comfortable, and safe. Regardless of adjusting the seat full to face the long hood. While yes one could eventually get used to it. Still not an normally comfortable position for most of us.

roadster wrote:So you face the long hood feet first, the controls now operated by your right hand in reverse direction than as designed, and your gauges are now over your right shoulder. Yea, thats comfortable, and safe. Regardless of adjusting the seat full to face the long hood. While yes one could eventually get used to it. Still not an normally comfortable position for most of us.

I am not implying i like running long hood forward, my only point was the locomotives are setup so that when you have to, it's not that big of a deal. I often sit sideways in cab seats, no matter what the locomotive so i adapt to it much easier. But ill take a Spartan Cab EMD short hood forward over ANY other loco cab.

CN has restrictions that any unit ran long hood forward without a pilot on the long hood end (if its straight down perpendicular to the track then its not a pilot) then that engine cannot go faster than 25mph.

Also all of CN's newer engines all have a speedometers against the back wall for long hood running operations.

gp9rm4108 wrote:CN has restrictions that any unit ran long hood forward without a pilot on the long hood end (if its straight down perpendicular to the track then its not a pilot) then that engine cannot go faster than 25mph.

Also all of CN's newer engines all have a speedometers against the back wall for long hood running operations.

The CN doesn't have any restrictions like that down here in the lower 48. And not only do they have speedometers mounted on the back wall, there are ditchlights mounted on the long hood end and a selector switch on the control stand.

However, just beacuse they have speedometers and ditchlights, that doesn't mean they are suitable for running long hood forward. Running a -9 backwards sucks, but running a GEVO or an SD70M-2 sucks even more. The control stands really aren't set up for it, even by turning the seats around 180 degrees, and the radiators block visibility. We have even had engineers turn in injury claims from running those POS's backwards.

As far as ride quality, it's pretty much the same either way: horrible.

The need to have pilots on the leading end is a Transport Canada rule. I work on the D&H, on a run to Montreal. We have the same rule in Canada. Some of our SD40-2's have had ditch lights and pilots on the long hood end so that they can be used in both directions.

even in US running a locomotive in lead without some type of Pilot plate can not be done.

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER II--FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF
TRANSPORTATION

PART 229_RAILROAD LOCOMOTIVE SAFETY STANDARDS--Table of Contents

Subpart C_Safety Requirements

Sec. 229.123 Pilots, snowplows, end plates.

After January 1, 1981, each lead locomotive shall be equipped with
an end plate that extends across both rails, a pilot, or a snowplow. The
minimum clearance above the rail of the pilot, snowplow or end plate
shall be 3 inches, and the maximum clearance 6 inches.

DutchRailnut wrote:even in US running a locomotive in lead without some type of Pilot plate can not be done.

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER II--FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF
TRANSPORTATION

PART 229_RAILROAD LOCOMOTIVE SAFETY STANDARDS--Table of Contents

Subpart C_Safety Requirements

Sec. 229.123 Pilots, snowplows, end plates.

After January 1, 1981, each lead locomotive shall be equipped with
an end plate that extends across both rails, a pilot, or a snowplow. The
minimum clearance above the rail of the pilot, snowplow or end plate
shall be 3 inches, and the maximum clearance 6 inches.

The issue in this thread is people are confusing a pilot with a snowplow. They are NOT the same thing. A "Pilot" is simply the vertical steel sheet extending from the walkway down to the rails. Many railroads attach a snowplow to the pilot. But a snowplow is NOT a pilot. And no FRA rule says a locomotive must have a snowplow.

Pilots are usually made of thick steel, but the lower edge is made of thinner steel so that it will bend or break should the locomotive derail or strike a heavy object. This prevents the actual pilot sheet from beind bent or cracking. This thinner steel OR a snowplow is adjusted height wise to meet FRA or CTC Regulations.

A locomotive does NOT have to meet the requirements for a pilot on both ends so long as it does not operate in regular service in that direction. Many passenger units are like this. That is what the CN related post is adressing.

I cannot recall seeing a locomotive without 0.75" to 1.0" plate steel on the rear, just as in the front. I don't deal with passenger types, but outside of that, to my recollection, all locos have this plate welded to the frame/sill.

HoggerKen wrote:I cannot recall seeing a locomotive without 0.75" to 1.0" plate steel on the rear, just as in the front. I don't deal with passenger types, but outside of that, to my recollection, all locos have this plate welded to the frame/sill.

You won't find a freight loco without a full pilot because all freight loco's have the full pilots on both ends because freight loco's are built to operate from either direction. But many passenger loco's with full cowls will have a much smaller pilot at the rear because they are not designed to ever run backwards in normal service.

NV290 wrote:

HoggerKen wrote:I cannot recall seeing a locomotive without 0.75" to 1.0" plate steel on the rear, just as in the front. I don't deal with passenger types, but outside of that, to my recollection, all locos have this plate welded to the frame/sill.

You won't find a freight loco without a full pilot because all freight loco's have the full pilots on both ends because freight loco's are built to operate from either direction. But many passenger loco's with full cowls will have a much smaller pilot at the rear because they are not designed to ever run backwards in normal service.

But they are not as you say, vertical sheet steel. The scraper plate is also fabricated from plate steel, as found in the MPI, NRE, and EMD catalogues. Freight loco's outside of those you operate and a minority of others, are not made nor designed for run long distances backwards, especially on the carrier I work for. As I said, it is an ergonomic nightmare.

HoggerKen wrote:But they are not as you say, vertical sheet steel. The scraper plate is also fabricated from plate steel, as found in the MPI, NRE, and EMD catalogues.

What are you talking about? What is not as i say? I don't understand what your sentence means? Please do not tell me you are arguing the wording of Plate Vs Sheet steel?. Not everybody on here knows alot about loco's nor do they know about the production differences of a steel plate vs a steel sheet. By using the term "Sheet steel", a layman can relate that to a sheet of paper. I was not trying to confuse people by using the word plate steel which the average person may not understand. Lets not get into material specifics in this thread. All that matters for clarity is that a pilot must be made of STEEL. What type is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

HoggerKen wrote: Freight loco's outside of those you operate and a minority of others, are not made nor designed for run long distances backwards, especially on the carrier I work for. As I said, it is an ergonomic nightmare.

We have loco's from as far back as the 60's. So unless your running dinosaur Alco's, there is no difference. And because your carrier has an issue with doing it does not mean every other railroad in the US does. The whole idea of the cab design on freight loco's was to allow visibility in both directions for yard work and local work. That is why they got rid of the hood and went with an open walkway design. Despite your personal issue with "ergonomic nightmares", there is nothing the FRA or any carrier i have heard of in the US has against running long hood forward in a yard or for local service. If i asked to wye a GP40 each time i had to make anything more then a switching move, aside from being told no, i would be instantly branded a baby. The union will not defend you in this instance either. There is no rule that forbids this anywhere. If the railroads and manufacturers never intended all freight loco's to be able to run long or short hood forward, they why do they have headlights and number boards on the long hood end? Why do ALL EMD's have a headlight selector switch with a position that says Long Hood Lead?.

I am not suggesting that because all freight loco's have rear pilots that it means they were made to run road freights long hood forward. I never said that. But unlike cowl body passenger units, freight units often will be running long hood forward in local service or when switching. There have been many times i had a consist with several loco's and the rear unit was facing long hood forward. We will setoff a block of cars on the head end and then have to run backwards to our train with just the loco's. That distance is in some cases a few miles. I stay on the lead unit and the Conductor will be on the rear unit watching out. I have had to shove train up a hill and ill take whatever loco they give me however they have it. If it's one loco, at some point, either going to the train or coming back from it, ill be running long hood forward. I may be called to grab an engine and go assist another train. If the loco will become the leader of a train, i may have to run it long hood forward. These are examples of the times you will run long hood forward on a freight unit for more then a switching move.

We have several locals out here that use one GP40-2. Some go as far as 20-30 miles. And either going to the customer or coming back, you will be running long hood forward at some point.

damn I ran a Geep at 100mph for 80 miles long hood forward..........i just wanted to go home! No thought about a wye or anything like that, just trying to go for a few beans.....