Can a train be mis-routed through a junction

This seems like a silly question but I have to wonder if it is operationally possible:

If a train is approaching a junction at a high rate of speed (40, 60 MPH or so), is it possible that if the Dispatcher wasn't paying attention to the train, that the train could be mis-routed and take the wrong route through a junction - either by inattention of the crew to its signals, or the inability of the crew to control the train's speed prior to the junction switch?

And...how often does such a scenario occur? What is the process to get the train going the right direction - does it simply back up...does the crew get pulled off the train?

Under normal operation, once an interlocking signal is cleared for a movement, no switch involved in the route can be changed. If a dispatcher mistakenly tries to change a switch after the signal is cleared (having forgotten that he set up the route, or mistakenly believing the train has already passed -- it can happen), the system simply will not carry out the command. The only thing a dispatcher can do in such a situation (if he decides to stop the train) is employ a time-release arrangement which will restore the signal to stop without, however, releasing the locking, so if the train is unable to stop, as it probably will be, it will run by the signal but the original route is still locked in place, preventing any signal from being cleared for a conflicting movement. I don't know what happens to the engineer who runs by a signal that changed to stop in his face as a result of time-release actuation, but the event recorders in the dispatcher's office would show the sequence of events indicating that the engineer was not at fault. Maybe an engineer reading this can mention an actual occurrence of a signal being taken away too late for the train to avoid running by it.

That is how Amtrak fried one of the E-60's. They accidently sent it down the kearny connection and through a phase gap it was not able to handle. Poof, instant retirement for that loco.

nice railfan rumor, true if the crew on said engine was a bunch of morons with no brains.

So I guess it is not a true story.

first a engineer would notice the mis-routing and apply brakes, second a voltage change would never be right at interlocking.
third the engineer if routed for a voltage change would drop the pantographs and not just run into a higher voltage section.
Like I said its a persistent railfan rumor presumming the engineer were a total idiot.
No engine was ever cooked or writen off.

Well, I heard it too about the E60, maybe some Amtrak guys could verify if it is true or a rumor.

Unfortunately, it happens all the time, especially on the NEC. Ive been misrouted a few times, but each time I was able to call the dispatcher and tell him and stop before I took the signal.

On the NEC, sometimes you don't know if you are misrouted or not. At certain interlockings, they have installed arrows or lights which are lit when trains are diverted to tracks where there are voltage changes (at Swift for NJT's MandE) or wire ends (at Hunter for NJT's RVL). However, sometimes, like at Union interlockings (where NJTs Coast Line meets) you might not know if you are routed wrong becaues there are so many tracks and so many switches, with most giving the same signal when diverting, which in Union's case is a Medium Clear. So an Amtrak train could be running down track 3, get a Medium Clear, and not think twice, and cross over to track 4, but then also cross over to the Westbound Hole (towards the Coast Line) and well, they are going for a ride (esepecially because there is a 15mph restriction on 2 Xovers down to the Coast Line, even though you get a medium clear)

Usually the dispatcher just tells teh train to continue through the interlocking (if possible) to clear up the interlocking so it can be reset so the train can back up and start over again and go the right way!

If and engineer knows he is misrouted, he must stop and notify the dispatcher as soon as possible, and not take the interlocking. But if he does, they might reverse him out, or make him continue through the whole interlocking. If he takes a misroute where its obvious or he should know, he could be in trouble, especially if a pax train(s) get delayed.

If the dispatcher takes the signal way/drops the signal, and the enigneer cannot stop in time, he just notifies the dispatcher "Allied's Home signal on track 2 dropped to a stop signal in my face, im bringing my train to a safe stop, but im going to be in the interlocking" (or something like that).

DutchRailnut wrote:first a engineer would notice the mis-routing and apply brakes, second a voltage change would never be right at interlocking.
third the engineer if routed for a voltage change would drop the pantographs and not just run into a higher voltage section.
Like I said its a persistent railfan rumor presumming the engineer were a total idiot.
No engine was ever cooked or writen off.

the voltage change isn't at the interlocking itself, but its inbetween the two interlockings, down next to Kearny Jct on the MandE.

The story I was told was that it was an old timer yard crew, one who worked NYP and SSYD for years and years and years and hadn't made it out to NJ side of things in a long time. They had to take an E60 to Hudson yard to pick up a car or dead loco or something. There are arrows at Swift interlocking when trains are diverted, and apparently the eng and cond didn't know/notice them or konw what they were for. The switch for track 6 off of track 2 would be similar to the switch into the yard off of track 2, except tehy are about a mile apart. What I mean is that they would both be facing points going west off track 2. the track 6 at Swift would go under pretty much the switch for Hudson yard, where they were trying to go to.

From what I remembered, it happened towards the end of the E60s lives, so loosing one loco might not have been noticed.

Again, I dunno if it is true or not, but thats the story I heard, and I could see it happening - stranger things have happened.

Dutch, im sure in all your years you have noticed that not everyone is as competitent as they should be....stupidity is always a factor...

Thanks guys!

I was actually thinking of a much simpler scenario, out west (I was actually on the Fallbridge leg at BNSF Vancouver watching an eastbound go through, so admittedly the trains wouldn't be going as fast) and wondering if a train was misrouted - and instead of simply being on a wrong main track, going the wrong direction (i.e. off the SP&S heading across the Columbia Draw instead of Vancouver Yard).

In that scenario (again I know you're all east coasters so maybe your experience would be different) - would the train be required to back up, or would it complete the wye and then make a reverse move (assuming it was just headed into the yard) or cut off the power and run around?

However, with the much slower speeds it probably would be very infrequent if ever...

I can rember being told to always keep an eye open for misaligned switches when working on single track territory when I worked for Sperry Rail Service. Every now and then we would come up on a Switch that had been thrown the wrong way by a train crew that was working in the area. At the most part who ever was in the operators cab would just call the back end and are railroad rep would hop off and realign the switch(s) for us.

The E-60 story is been told in about 3 or 4 versions including at one time the number of engine.
yet pictures of same engine in service kept emerging, from close till long after the supposed incident.

sperry cars at least where I work are considered on track equipment and do not follow train operation rules. So by definition they must run at restricted speed, not exceeding speed to stop within one half range of vision looking out for misaligned switches derail, stuff fouling the tracks, broken rails, etc

Arrestmespi wrote:sperry cars at least where I work are considered on track equipment and do not follow train operation rules. So by definition they must run at restricted speed, not exceeding speed to stop within one half range of vision looking out for misaligned switches derail, stuff fouling the tracks, broken rails, etc

I know all about that all sperry cars are viewed as ontrack equipment and can not exceed 10-15mph. while testing and no more than 5mph over switches and RR crossings the brushes have to be up when going over RR Crossings and Switches. I was pointing out the fact that on occation We did come up on switches that were lined the wrong way on occaation in yards or on single trak maine lines where spring switches were used. If we did not stop and call the back to the test room to tell are RR Rep about it to realigned the switch we would get bitched at by someone. We ran into this problum a few times while on CSX where we were told to look out for improperly aligned switches.

On the UP we have a "station" called Alazon on the Lakeside Sub where an eastbound train can be lined for either mvt. on the Lakeside Sub or the Shafter Sub at track speed (79 MPH for Amtrak, 70 MPH for freight). The signals are set up as Clear (green signal on top, red on the bottom) for mvt. onto the Shafter and Diverging Clear (red on top, green on the bottom) for mvt. onto the Lakeside.

Last Thursday night as I was headed back to Salt Lake City (SLC) we had a UP intermodal train ahead of us by about 35 miles. Apparently he was headed for SLC on the Shafter instead of the normal route to Ogden via the Lakeside. The conductor (assumption that the conductor called on the radio) on the UP freight called up the Shafter Sub dispatcher (the one who controlled the switch at Alazon) and said that they had the signal in view but where not lined up correctly for the Shafter Sub. The dispatcher immediately acknowledged that he had incorrectly lined the switch and asked if they could get the train stopped before passing the signal. They responded yes and stopped. They were then lined over correctly after the signals "timed-out" and were reset for their mvt. onto the Shafter Sub.
The dispatcher apologized to the crew and sent them down the Shafter Sub.



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Just to clarify this in my own mind, is the Shafter sub the former WP and the Lakeside the Overland Route?