Are train manufacturers missing Generation X?

scottychaos wrote:Not being an HO scale modeler, I cant comment much on your rolling stock questions..so I will leave that to others..
but as a person who is the dead-center of Generation X, (I am one day older than Jennifer Anniston!
I have to ask:
what does this have to do with Generation-X?
are you aware that Gen-X'ers are now turning 40!

(Generation X were kids in the 70's, teenagers in the 80's, and the 20-somethings of the 90's..
we are now nearly, or in, our early 40's..)

From what I have seen, there seems to be a lot of modern road names..
and as for cost..he can so it the same way we all did it when we were teenagers..
we bought cheap, or used..ebay is a treaure trove of cheap trains..
just like always, affordable trains are out there, if you look for them..
When I was a Gen-X teenager in the 80's, I couldnt afford the Rivorsossi steam engines that cost an utterly out of reach $100..
so I did without..but I still had a nice Tyco, Mantua and Athern collection!

Scot

B44NYC wrote:I had an interesting question asked me yesterday.

My neighbors' son who is 16 asked me about my interest in the hobby of trains. We went on to have a long conversation on how I got into the hobby, my interest in 1950s,1960's and some modern era trains that I have on my layout.

He's interested in the hobby and wants to model Amtrak, which only most kids his age knows. He mentioned he'd like to model the Silver Meteor because of his first trip to Florida.

I go to Walthers website to give him an idea what he might need to model that train. Everything is (Amfleet II's, Viewliners, Budd Diner, Heritage Baggage car) retired or out of stock!!

He mentioned he would like to model NJ Transit, because he grew up in Rahway NJ. Go to look again, no passenger cars.

Begrudguenly, he mentioned he would like to model UP....try explaning to a 16 year old that a decent passenger car goes for $50-60 dollars a piece.

My question is, if a kid wanted to get into the hobby (HO or any scale) and the only thing they see is what's operating on the road today and the model they are interested in is either:

1. Not available
2. Retired
3. Available but not affordable (brass and some plastic)
4. A kit that is too complicated for a kid to stay interested in to build

and with the older generation mostly modelling fallen flags, how is the hobby to survive and appeal to the next generation?

green_elite_cab wrote:

B44NYC wrote:I had an interesting question asked me yesterday.

My neighbors' son who is 16 asked me about my interest in the hobby of trains. We went on to have a long conversation on how I got into the hobby, my interest in 1950s,1960's and some modern era trains that I have on my layout.

He's interested in the hobby and wants to model Amtrak, which only most kids his age knows. He mentioned he'd like to model the Silver Meteor because of his first trip to Florida.

I go to Walthers website to give him an idea what he might need to model that train. Everything is (Amfleet II's, Viewliners, Budd Diner, Heritage Baggage car) retired or out of stock!!

He mentioned he would like to model NJ Transit, because he grew up in Rahway NJ. Go to look again, no passenger cars.

Begrudguenly, he mentioned he would like to model UP....try explaning to a 16 year old that a decent passenger car goes for $50-60 dollars a piece.

My question is, if a kid wanted to get into the hobby (HO or any scale) and the only thing they see is what's operating on the road today and the model they are interested in is either:

1. Not available
2. Retired
3. Available but not affordable (brass and some plastic)
4. A kit that is too complicated for a kid to stay interested in to build

and with the older generation mostly modelling fallen flags, how is the hobby to survive and appeal to the next generation?

I can certainly relate to your neighbor. I've got about 5 more years than him, but I model just about everything you've mentioned, and i started modeling the Silver Meteor at about the same time. It took me three years to build that train! If i could give any advice, GO TO TRAIN SHOWS. its the only place deals can be had anymore. Ironically, it was these prices that drove me down to HO from Lionel O in the first place!

I started modelling HO and the prices are going to drive me down to N.....LOL

That said, I'm afraid I must disagree with you, at least in part.

Assuming we're talking HO scale....

Most Up-To-Date freight trains can be had if one wants one. One could easily build a fairly representative roster of locomotives by any Class 1 and many smaller railroads. I can't think of any major model of GP that isn't currently available. Freight cars are a non issue, I think there have to be thousands of modern themed freight cars available in the Walthers Catalog alone. You can't go wrong modeling modern day freight. Be it UP, CSX, or BNSF and NS, you can probably find a model of it as long as its not some one-off battery powered locomotive.

Very true...and this is what is very enduring about the hobby, at least on the freight railroad side, that you can pick and choose and necessarily be regionally specific.


Passenger trains on the other hand are not very popular. There are many reasons for this;

1.) You need wide curves just to run them.
2.)You need even more space to operate them in a realistic or interesting manner
3.)Even if you have the space, Passenger train operations do not appear to appeal most people.

That is only the purely model related reasons passenger trains are not popular.

I would agree on the first 2 points, the last one however after attending most train shows (Greenburg, Timonium, Springfield) and watching sales on eBay, passenger cars are just as popular as freight cars. The pricing, the accuracy of the detail (Walthers new 64 seat New Haven coach comes to mind) and the absence of certain railroads past or present in RTR is what chases some people away. Look at Rapido's Osgood Bradley RTR passenger cars....they flew off the shelves. I'll even add MTH's new line of passenger cars will be a hit for the fact they are marketing certain railroads that either were not done correctly are appealed to a niche market. The Delaware & Hudson, Erie Lackawanna and Erie 5 car sets also flew off the shelves at my LHS.

But the Branchline passenger cars, IMO are excellent kits, if you have time to kill and patience. But if your trying to appeal to a younger generation that are always on the go and with short attention spans, is not the way to go to appeal to a broader young market.

Starting in 1971 with Amtrak and continuing through out the 70s and into 1983, Nearly every passenger operation in the country lost it's identity, replaced by names such as the Controversial Amtrak, and sterile, empty acronyms like SEPTA, NJT, MBTA or MARC, devoid of any history or romance.

Amtrak slowly but surely repainted everything, and then further replaced the variety of budd, pullman, and ACF cars with identical Amfleets. You could not longer tell many trains apart by their consists. Some trains ceased to exist alltogether or became husks of what they were.

Those sterile, colorless acronym-railroads began supplementing their fleet with similarly sterile and identical equipment. Given names like "Comet", "Highliner", or "Shoreliner", these cars did little to inspire the feeling of the old heavy weights and streamliners they replaced.

The same could be said about NYC subway system....I miss pearing over the edge of the platform and trying to guess which fleet of subway cars were going to pop out of the tunnel...an R32, R40, a freshly painted redbird...etc...Now everything is stainless, and the void of personality.

According to nearly every book, dvd, and first person account I've seen, this is when people REALLY stopped caring about passenger trains. Only now have many of them earned their place in History, and perhaps gained a little of the old long lost romance in the eyes of a younger generation that did not have the biases that many of the older crowd still hold.

In the modern day, passenger trains aren't really that big in the grand scheme of things. How prominent is Amtrak throughout the nation? It may be the only intercity passenger service, but It only follows a few routes. While commuter railroads are certainly all over the northeast (from North Carolina to Massachusetts), and radiate from places like Chicago like Metra, and parallel the West coast in the form of Metrolink and Amtrak California, You don't really see to many commuter trains. Though you could probably give me a whole list of commuter railroads outside of the places I mentioned, just how prominent are they really in the grand scheme of the US rail network? My guess is that most young people haven't been exposed to passenger trains.

Your right on that part. My nephew who lives on the Delmarva Peninsula and is 6, never seen a locomotive or a passenger train before because there is no freight lines or passenger service where he lives. I got a big laugh after I took him to 30th St Station for the first time during the summer and he didn't know "where people were going on the big tubes with lights"


All of these things make passenger trains unattractive to most modelers, resulting in their "early" retirements by Walthers. Its a real shame, since a few of us would like to have some passenger service on our layouts.

Since Walthers holds the license to market some of Amtrak's passenger cars (Horizon, Amfleet II's, Heritage Baggage & Diner, Viewliner) in their current paint scheme, I guess Walthers is taking a "wait and see" approach on Amtrak HO products. I would have to guess the biggest industry surprise would be if they released Amfleets with the same stainless finish as the Superliners...But I have to wonder how many new younger modellers that were considering getting into HO are now more likely considering N scale (Kato Amtrak sets were selling pretty well at my LHS and are affordable for beginners) because of the "early" retirements.

I haven't even addressed things like specific commuter models, since things like Jersey Arrows, GP40FH-2s, and Rapid Transit cars will probably ALWAYS be the Domain of Resin kits that fit ALL of your criteria (not available, retired, expensive, pain to put together).


TL;DR- The problem isn't that your neighbor's son can't find any reasonable models of something he is familiar with. His problem is that he wants to model passenger trains.

B44NYC wrote: I started modelling HO and the prices are going to drive me down to N.....LOL

Very true...and this is what is very enduring about the hobby, at least on the freight railroad side, that you can pick and choose and necessarily be regionally specific.

I would agree on the first 2 points, the last one however after attending most train shows (Greenburg, Timonium, Springfield) and watching sales on eBay, passenger cars are just as popular as freight cars. The pricing, the accuracy of the detail (Walthers new 64 seat New Haven coach comes to mind) and the absence of certain railroads past or present in RTR is what chases some people away. Look at Rapido's Osgood Bradley RTR passenger cars....they flew off the shelves. I'll even add MTH's new line of passenger cars will be a hit for the fact they are marketing certain railroads that either were not done correctly are appealed to a niche market. The Delaware & Hudson, Erie Lackawanna and Erie 5 car sets also flew off the shelves at my LHS.

But the Branchline passenger cars, IMO are excellent kits, if you have time to kill and patience. But if your trying to appeal to a younger generation that are always on the go and with short attention spans, is not the way to go to appeal to a broader young market.

The same could be said about NYC subway system....I miss pearing over the edge of the platform and trying to guess which fleet of subway cars were going to pop out of the tunnel...an R32, R40, a freshly painted redbird...etc...Now everything is stainless, and the void of personality.

Your right on that part. My nephew who lives on the Delmarva Peninsula and is 6, never seen a locomotive or a passenger train before because there is no freight lines or passenger service where he lives. I got a big laugh after I took him to 30th St Station for the first time during the summer and he didn't know "where people were going on the big tubes with lights"

Since Walthers holds the license to market some of Amtrak's passenger cars (Horizon, Amfleet II's, Heritage Baggage & Diner, Viewliner) in their current paint scheme, I guess Walthers is taking a "wait and see" approach on Amtrak HO products. I would have to guess the biggest industry surprise would be if they released Amfleets with the same stainless finish as the Superliners...But I have to wonder how many new younger modellers that were considering getting into HO are now more likely considering N scale (Kato Amtrak sets were selling pretty well at my LHS and are affordable for beginners) because of the "early" retirements.

Desertdweller wrote:I guess I'm having trouble seeing what the actual problem is here. Is it necessary to have first-hand experience with what you choose to model? If so, then why do people still model steam operations? For that matter, why do people model WWII armor?

One of the greatest attractions of modeling is the ability to re-create what is no more in existence. Sure, I rode some classic trains in the years before AMTRAK, and some of those appear on my model railroad. But so do many more that I have not ridden, but now wish I had.

N-scale is a great scale to model passenger operations. There IS a lot of stuff available to model trains of the classic streamliner era. Walthers, Con-Cor, Kato all offer the makings of the classic streamliners. What they don't offer, you can generally kitbash. After all, there were only three major manufacturers of streamlined cars, and virtually all the classic streamliners used variations of off-the-shelf designs. Streamliner paint schemes were generally pretty simple to paint at home. A lot of railroads used basic stainless steel cars, sometimes with painted letterboards or pier panels.

If you want variety, model a big city passenger terminal that was served by a number of railroads. In the 50's and early 60's, you would find both streamlined and heavyweight cars, sometimes mixed in the same trains. You may even find some steam locomotives still in service. There is plenty of opportunity to do research into train consists and schedules. Almost all N-scale passenger cars come with interior detail. Do a little research and paint your car interiors to match the prototype....

...There is no reason to be stuck with the generic passenger trains of today. There are real modeling opportunities out ther if you just partake of what is available.

I would suggest attending model railroad shows and swap meets to find out-of-production items. You can often find some good used items at good prices, too.
The three model manufacturers I named all offer boxed sets of matching streamlined equipment. Some, like Kato and Walthers, offer complete prototypical trains with car names and numbers that match cars actually used on the trains. Con-Cor and Rapido offer only slightly more generic sets in matched color schemes. Most cars are also available individually.

There is no reason to be stuck with the generic passenger trains of today. There are real modeling opportunities out there if you just partake of what is available.

Les

Otto Vondrak wrote:Hobby's not dying, sorry to disappoint. Hobby is growing, manufacturers are making better and more varied models, and there are more manufacturers than before. Just because teenagers are not entering award-winning models or building basement empires does not mean the hobby is dying. People enter this hobby seriously around the time they get their first house, their career settled, and their home life routine. Until then, you're just playing with trains. And playing with trains is cool, too. You buy the same supplies whether or not you're building a basement empire or just enjoy futzing around with a 4x8 or running trains under the christmas tree.

Niche hobby segments are always difficult to serve... Niche markets are usually populated by modelers who ENJOY the challenge of building what they want, or they know they will have to build most of what they want because it isn't available commercially.

-otto-

green_elite_cab wrote: While the original focus of the thread was that teenagers and such may feel discouraged when the trains they want to model are unavailable, We've found that for the most part, current day trains are available as freight models.

Otto Vondrak wrote:

green_elite_cab wrote: While the original focus of the thread was that teenagers and such may feel discouraged when the trains they want to model are unavailable, We've found that for the most part, current day trains are available as freight models.

Teenagers are not the target demographic for the model manufacturers! They don't have the budget to support the hobby like someone who works a career job and has discretionary income! and a layout! and a basement with a roof over it for that layout to reside in!

green_elite_cab wrote:In the case of Railroad.net, we have a huge crowd of Commuter modelers.

Otto Vondrak wrote:
I beg to differ. I see a lot of young kids who wish to collect models of the same kinds of trains that they see running past their houses. They are not "modelers."

If anything, they are upset that a) the models they want either don't exist or b) if they do exist they cost a lot of acquire.

If they were actually "modelers" they would figure out how to built the models that they want, or otherwise acquire them.

It's a pretty important distinction.

-otto-