Any long distance railfan excursions in PA/NJ 2011?

JimBoylan wrote:Does anyone want to share a bedroom with me on this trip?
The "roomette supplement" is just another way of saying how single and double rooms have been priced in the sleeping car, hotel, and shipping industries. The total charge for a Double Bedroom has usually been slightly less than for 2 Roomettes.

Would love to, but I don't have thousands of dollars in my back pocket for this!! I can understand the high prices due to high insurance premiums, PV sleepers, etc, but if there were some regular coaches at $200 or $300 a pop, then maybe I could afford something like this!!

blockline4180 wrote: Would love to, but I don't have thousands of dollars in my back pocket for this!! I can understand the high prices due to high insurance premiums, PV sleepers, etc, but if there were some regular coaches at $200 or $300 a pop, then maybe I could afford something like this!!

By intentional design of the trip's operator, there are no coaches in the consist. The trip is "first class" only.

Those who know more about these things tell me that the economics of such a special train excursion do not work well when coaches (and coach fares) are inserted into the mix of accommodations. If there was one or more coaches in the special train, then I suspect the coach fare would be a few hundred dollars a day for each of the four days, rather than $200 to $300 for the whole four day excursion.

I will be boycotting restaurants and eating my own home cooking for a long time so that I can afford this trip.
As for coaches, do the math. The coach has to earn almost as much total as the private car in fares. The meals are not very much of the cost. You have less chance of selling out a 60 or 80 seat coach than a private car with 8 or 10 passengers. For financial safety, you would probably have to price the coach based on window seats only, 30 or 40 passengers. Now do the proportions. If private car with 8 has to charge $4,000, then coach with 5 times as many or 40 passengers will have to charge 1/5 of that, or about $800. Now, what about hotel shuttles for overnight coach passengers or vans to handle the 1 way, 1 day riders? What if the stopping points have to be changed? The economics are bad. Some of the car owners may be "subsidizing fares, because they want to go on the trip, and the paying passengers reduce their losses. Also, Mr. Levin seems to be worried about Head End Power capacity, and so has to limit the train length.
In 2002, Mr. Levin did run a trip that had coaches. There was a delay leaving one overnight stop because the hotel forgot to place the wake up calls!
He has been willing to let his locomotives haul coach trains, but he himself doesn't seem to be enough to arrange everything.
I fear that even if we get a group together to hire Mr. Levin to use his locomotives and help to pull a repeat of this trip with coaches, we will still have to charge too much to be able to sell enough tickets to cover the expenses. I'm still willing to help investigate farther.

I would be willing to pay ~$2500, but any more is too expensive.

Once and for all here is the real story from the man who wrote the book in order to stop the speculation and the rumors.

As of today we still do not have a cost from either Jersey Transit or Amtrak for their respective segments. The costs are based upon what we assume will be the usual ad customary charges from Amtrak and Transit.

Why no coaches? The answer is rather simple. It does not work on a four day trip. for instance in Bath NY where we overnight there just are not enough hotel rooms to accommodate the train capacity. Box lunches don't cut it on 12 hour days. Two coaches would consume the total population of the trip. Can you image the cost if there were only two cars on the trip because all o the rare mileage folks wanted to do it at the lowest possible cost. You could not do it and furthermore Amtrak does not have long distances coaches available for charter in the east. You will see in the soon to be announced Altoona Railfest excursions that the costs are no longer $ 200.00 for a coach seat. There is a new economic order that $4.00 gas, soaring food prices and the weak dollar are imposing. you cannot no longer buy a local new paper for a quarter. How about $1.00 ?

In fact the PV owners actually subsidize the trip considering positioning moves in and out and other fixed costs that just do not make it into the equation.

There is the need to generate sufficient money to pay Amtrak and Transit. Then there is the cost of Diesel Fuel. You need potable water, ice and sewage services at places like Bath and Meadville, towns that have not seen a passenger train in over a generation. On two legs of the trip we need extra locomotives to haul the train backwards: Gang Mills to Bath and Franklin to Meadville. There is the added costs of the dinner meal at the Taylor Winery in Hammondsport and at the Riverside Inn in Cambridge Springs. The PV's serve food and beverages all day long. How about crews that expect to get paid and reimbursed for their expenses?

There are Route Guides to be printed and "trinkets" to be distributed.

There is the organization of the trip with $4.00 gas for trips to survey the places the train will park and travel thruogh as well as to make logistical arrangements.

The rules were established so we could get the maximum number of cars to provide the lowest unit costs.

Some cars will carry day passengers for the full four days with hotel accommodations available.

If anyone wants serious information about day accommodations feel free to contact me directly.

Bennett Levin

BTW: The Steamtown excursions will carry coaches.

thank you for clearing up the confusion, and thank you for actually doing things like this. it may be too expensive for a lot of us, but this must be a hard business to make a buck in, and whatever the fare may be, at least it's possible.

To respond to RWK

The Bethlehem to Steamtown excursion will, if all the issues can be resolved, take place on Saturday and Sunday of Labor Day. The trips are designed to be very affordable and will depart from the Union Station area and will run through the Lehigh Gorge as a bridge in the Water Gap has that line out of service.

The details will not be known until mid-July.

It will be a train with Amtrak equipment (coaches) and a few private cars offering upgraded space.

Power will by the 5711-5809

I'll post more when things are firmed up.

The Altoona Railfest trains will also have coaches when they run the first weekend in October. They will be another great value.

Bennett

Bennett

I just want to give a big THANK YOU to Mr. Levin for taking the time to explain all this. It makes perfect sense.

I won't be able to make a trip this year, due more to scheduling than cost issues. Hopefully I will able to make another one in the future - I would love to do rare mileage in Pennsylvania.

Yes, thank you Bennett for making these trips possible!!

To Bennett, it has been years and years that you could ride a passenger train from or through the Lehigh Valley apart from the Emmaus to Pennsburg excursions a few years ago and the Phillipsburg steam train, WK&S, Reading and Northern/Lehigh Gorge Scenic Railway. There were fan trips by the Blue Mountain and Reading that went through Allentown on the way to Jim Thorpe from Temple in Sept 1985, fall 1987, and 1988. Power was Reading #2102 out of service since Oct 1991 and currently in storage at Port Clinton. However, that was Conrail and they let the trips happen. Now, Norfolk Southern is in charge and even though they are bringing back steam excursions themselves, they dislike friction bearings and they seem hard to work with to run fan trips unless you pay them millions in insurance. Your trip will use Norfolk Southern from Bethlehem to Lehighton, then switch to Reading and Northern to Dupont, then switch to Canadian Pacific to Scranton. I suppose since it's a day trip that it will cost much less than trips like the Erie Limited. I can't afford $4,000.00 per person for a train ride. I'm sorry, but those prices are ridiculous. Do you think this Beth to Scranton trip will be under $200 or under $100 a ticket? Is it a one day trip, no overnight required? The part between Dupont and Jim Thorpe I've ridden before on a Reading and Northern trip with steam 425 two years ago, but the part from Bethlehem to Lehighton/Packerton is rare mileage because that's Norfolk Southern track and the only way you can ordinarily ride that is be an employee of NS. I don't really like Amtrak coaches, but if you have to to meet NS's requirements, then you have to. I suppose that the older open window coaches that a lot of tourist railroads use are prohibited on NS and other class 1's because they're friction bearing, risk of overheating and then train stopped blocking the main and holding up freights. Your coaches are all Amtrak certified, are they? BTW, I watched your train fly by Macungie on Nov. 2, 2007 on the way to Scranton and NY State on that expensive 4 day trip. That was rare mileage, too except the Delaware Water Gap to Scranton portion which you can ride on Steamtown, and Steamtown just did a steam trip on CP up to the Nicholson Tunkhannock Viaduct on May 28. It was sold out. The track from Philly through Reading, ABE, Phillipsburg, Bangor, Portland, is all NS trackage and was extremely rare mileage that you can't ordinarily ride unless you're an engineer or conductor for NS.

Bennett Levin wrote:Once and for all here is the real story from the man who wrote the book in order to stop the speculation and the rumors.

As of today we still do not have a cost from either Jersey Transit or Amtrak for their respective segments. The costs are based upon what we assume will be the usual ad customary charges from Amtrak and Transit.

Why no coaches? The answer is rather simple. It does not work on a four day trip. for instance in Bath NY where we overnight there just are not enough hotel rooms to accommodate the train capacity. Box lunches don't cut it on 12 hour days. Two coaches would consume the total population of the trip. Can you image the cost if there were only two cars on the trip because all o the rare mileage folks wanted to do it at the lowest possible cost. You could not do it and furthermore Amtrak does not have long distances coaches available for charter in the east. You will see in the soon to be announced Altoona Railfest excursions that the costs are no longer $ 200.00 for a coach seat. There is a new economic order that $4.00 gas, soaring food prices and the weak dollar are imposing. you cannot no longer buy a local new paper for a quarter. How about $1.00 ?

RWK, I think you should re-read the above before you call the prices ridiculous. I doubt the organizers are going to net one penny after all of the true costs are factored in. If you can't afford it, then you have to go without. Right now, my resources are committed elsewhere, so I can't afford to be on the train. But I will be content to be trackside and enjoy the opportunity to grab pictures.

Andyt293 wrote:

Bennett Levin wrote:Once and for all here is the real story from the man who wrote the book in order to stop the speculation and the rumors.

As of today we still do not have a cost from either Jersey Transit or Amtrak for their respective segments. The costs are based upon what we assume will be the usual ad customary charges from Amtrak and Transit.

Why no coaches? The answer is rather simple. It does not work on a four day trip. for instance in Bath NY where we overnight there just are not enough hotel rooms to accommodate the train capacity. Box lunches don't cut it on 12 hour days. Two coaches would consume the total population of the trip. Can you image the cost if there were only two cars on the trip because all o the rare mileage folks wanted to do it at the lowest possible cost. You could not do it and furthermore Amtrak does not have long distances coaches available for charter in the east. You will see in the soon to be announced Altoona Railfest excursions that the costs are no longer $ 200.00 for a coach seat. There is a new economic order that $4.00 gas, soaring food prices and the weak dollar are imposing. you cannot no longer buy a local new paper for a quarter. How about $1.00 ?

RWK, I think you should re-read the above before you call the prices ridiculous. I doubt the organizers are going to net one penny after all of the true costs are factored in. If you can't afford it, then you have to go without. Right now, my resources are committed elsewhere, so I can't afford to be on the train. But I will be content to be trackside and enjoy the opportunity to grab pictures.

I agree. The prices are what they are in order to make the trip happen, and I doubt anyone is making profit on this trip.

I appreciate Mr. Levin taking the time to come here and explain the situation, and luckily he's been on the internet enough to know that he's going to see postings like the one from rwk. I'd like to believe that the majority of us are supportive of Mr. Levin and appreciate the personal sacrifice and hard work that he expends to make all of these trips happen. He doesn't have to do this stuff, but he does it anyways, and we gain by seeing and riding some excellent trains.

I also would like to give Kudos to Mr. Levin for not only organizing rare mileage trips but his steadfast support of our wounded warriors each year at the Army/Navy game.

The Bethlehem to Scranton trip I could probably afford. I guess it costs Bennett that much to run the multi day trips so he has no choice but to charge the riders. If you can't afford it, then find some other train to ride. Or in this case, go on the Bethlehem to Scranton trip which will have coaches and be affordable for the average person. The multi day trips would cost us (my family) about $16,000.00 for four adults. That's not cheap but then NJT, NS has to be paid, the employees on the train have to be paid, etc. I will wait for Bennett's info about the Bethlehem to Scranton trip since Bethlehem is only several miles east of me, I'm from the Allentown area. That would be a neat trip riding through Allentown Yard and up NS's former CNJ line to Lehighton, then Reading and Northern through Lehigh Gorge, Penobscot, and CP to Scranton. I'm sorry for making that comment that the prices are ridiculous, but $4,000 is steep for lower income people. I was saying that from my perspective.

It's not the railroads you have to pay millions in insurance, its the insurance companies that have made running most trips impossible for most groups.