AMTRAK'S ALC-42'S and ALC-42E'S paint scheme questio +question about where the new ALC-42'S operate

What might be a possibility is that install CAT on storage tracks at route ends so the diesels will not need to idle all night.
As far as the 1st street tunnel electrification is that it is planned sometime after 2050.

TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:21 pm

robelybasis wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:45 pm Hopefully Amtrak takes some steps to partially electrify corridors to help maximize efficiency and air quality around new airo routes. This takes the logistical nightmare of engine changes away. Maybe partial springfield corridor electrification or North station in Boston. Or the Washington D.C. tunnels?
What are some corridors that could be electrified or partially electrified easily with these trains now in service?

Electrification of the 1st Street Tunnels would be fantastically expensive. Both tunnels would need to have their inverts completely removed and the underlying soil (which is probably chock full of all sorts of interesting structures that would need to be diverted) dug out to a depth sufficient to provide the vertical clearances for the 12kV catenary. Then the tunnel sides and crown would need to be completely rehabiliated, reinforced and likely replaced in many areas in order to prevent collapse and/or degradation from the disturbances related to the soil excavation. All of this would have to be coordinated carefully with the rest of the federal government to avoid any disturbances to the National Mall and the buildings around it, and that would result in a very, very high cost.

KEA (and RB): YES - Substantial alterations to the 1st Street Tunnels in Washington WILL be VERY expensive...
I am going to further correct KEA with some DC geography that is *Off Topic* but deserves mention:
First and foremost - For those unaware 1st Street NE/SE runs N/S from Union Station passing these important
US Government buildings: The Russell and Dirksen Senate Office Buildings; United States Supreme Court and
Library of Congress on the E side and US Capitol grounds on the W side of 1st Street; The James Madison/Lib.
Of Congress and Cannon House Office Buildings; The Metro Capitol South Station (Blue/Orange/Silver Lines)
ALL of these mentioned US Government buildings can be considered **Ultra-High Security** facilities...
The First Street Tunnel exit is near D Street and New Jersey Avenue SE with the tracks curving SW towards the
former Virginia (Avenue) Tower location westward towards the L'Enfant Plaza (and VRE station) area...

The US Capitol Building is considered the center of the District of Columbia - North, East and South Capitol
Streets discern NW, NE, SW and SE along with the National Mall - extending westward from the US Capitol
to the Washington Monument and Lincoln Memorial and in the process divides NW from SW...
The First Street Tunnel S of Union Station has nothing whatsoever to do with the National Mall...

Something that I would like to see is a track chart of Washington Union Station's south lower-level "throat"
to see where the "AC MOTOR STOP" signs are located indicating the end of catenary wire leading towards
the First Street Tunnel...This must be of sufficient length to allow AC motors to run around consists during
engine changes - the 1st Street Tunnel clearance currently allows some excess height rail equipment
(such as Amtrak Superliners and VRE Gallery Cars) to use the Tunnel (in case anyone is unaware)...

Extending catenary wire through the 1st Street Tunnel actually made sense decades ago when the route
through DC over the Long Bridge to Potomac Yard was still electrified - for the record Conrail removed the
wires in the early 1980s along with the gradual drawdown and eventual closure of Potomac Yard...
If the line was still electrified closing the "gap" through the First Street Tunnel along with extending
the electrified main tracks to Alexandria Station would have made sense...Today not so much if at all...

I first traveled to Washington, DC in 1978-1979 and remember being surprised to find out about the
short First Street Tunnel "gap" between the former PRR/PC electrified routes and even then after
seeing Amtrak trains enter and exit the First Street Tunnel south portal that clearance was "tight"...

WP: A more prudent way of providing power to locomotives allowing them to be shut down is to
provide stand-by (plug-in) power apparatus in yard facilities - which would be more sensible than
stringing a short segment of wire in a yard with a much-higher voltage...An outside electric supply
should be at what the new units will function with internally after stepdown from a transformer
(AC or DC depending on the voltage level to be determined)...MACTRAXX

Maybe I missed it, but would the 1st Street tunnels need enlarging for catenary?
If they're taking Superliner equipment (and Wikipedia lists their height as 17' which jives with Superliners just barely being able to fit) I would think that gives enough for catenary.

GM: The most important problem with AC catenary being used in a tunnel with close clearances
to certain types of equipment is that there MUST be enough space between the roofs of cars and
the wire to prevent flash-overs - the best examples are the NJT Multilevels and LIRR C3 cars that
run through the tunnels to Penn Station - which has to be about 8 to 10 inches estimated for the
11 KV wire...AC has the ability to arc over towards ground in a close-clearance situation meaning
that actual contact is not even fully necessary for this potentially dangerous problem to occur...
Rail employees in overhead wire territory define this as "shooting the line"...MACTRAXX

I think that since all B&O, PRR, RF&P, and Southern passenger services terminated at Union Station, there wasn't felt to be any advantage to adding overhead electrics as the RF&P and Southern were the railroads that used the tunnel and most likely did not see positive economic benefits from electrification of any of their operations.

Could replacing the gravel ballast in the 1st St Tunnels with concrete slab trackage allow for an increased portal size without changing the overall size of the tunnel?

I do find it interesting that using ALC-42Es and APVs will allow for piecemeal electrification in ways that no other equipment in US operations do. I also see possibilities of extending routes like the Keystone services west of Harrisburg a possibility.

RW: 1-What surprised me is that there were two PRR/PC electrified track segments that were very close to
one another (The Washington Terminal trackage to the line past Virginia Tower to Potomac Yard) without
being connected to one another despite only being a short distance apart through the First Street Tunnel...
This could have allowed PRR/PC specifically more options or flexibility had this wire "gap" been closed...
As mentioned previously this is NOT an option today with the Long Bridge/Potomac Yard wire long gone...

2-This depends what is UNDER that track and ballast...With the close clearance of the 1st Street Tunnel
think "every little bit helps" - Direct fixation slab track may help solve some of the tunnel height problem...

3-I will refrain and reserve judgement on the new units until there is an actual prototype built, available and
being tested and specifically there is more information available (such as fact sheets - that I have NOT seen)
about them...What kind of "piecemeal electrification" are you referring to - and where would these be?

Extending service west of Harrisburg is something that will have to be negotiated between Norfolk Southern,
Amtrak and PennDot - just getting a second train for the roughly 250 miles between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh
along with the Pennsylvanian turned out to be a costly proposition just for funding this added service...

Until the new NEC Airo trains are finally built and available it makes NO sense for me to speculate and/or
predict what service options will be at least three to five years in the future...I will defer to Amtrak's own
service planners and advocacy groups such as the Rail Passenger's Association in this instance...
MACTRAXX

How much new rolling stock could Amtrak have purchased for the cost of these constant new liveries and subsequent need for repaints over the past 15 years?

west point wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2024 9:10 pm What might be a possibility is that install CAT on storage tracks at route ends so the diesels will not need to idle all night.

This is basically what shore power does. Most outlying commuter yards have what looks like a solitary catenary bridge on the outer edge. It has cable reels with (3) 480v cables which are plugged into each train overnight. It keeps HEP running, heat on, maybe an engine block heater to make startup easy. It's also way cheaper than 50' of catenary and a pantograph ($100k+) on every engine.


Picture- Mark Vogel - Flicker

USRailFan wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 11:16 am How much new rolling stock could Amtrak have purchased for the cost of these constant new liveries and subsequent need for repaints over the past 15 years?

A quick search suggests painting a locomotive costs less than $50,000 and that the cost of a new locomotive is greater than $10M, so Amtrak would be able to paint every revenue locomotive (about 300) for the cost of 1.5 locomotives.

I'd think that you'd want to repaint equipment at least every 15 years anyway to avoid having it look worn and ratty, so as far as repainting equipment goes, it seems it may be a wash to change liveries every 15 years.

It's not about the dollar cost to repaint the fleet. It's about the headquarters priorities. How much brain power is looking at shiny pictures when they should be dealing with the God-awful customer service aboard?

From Hilton Suites Boca Raton--

Let's see, how long do airlines go between "re-imagings"?

They all have now made their aircraft into.flying billboards now that United has joined the others (last January, the 738 down to MIA was "reimaged", never got to see the return aircraft, too many people standing around the windows).

But it seems like about once every fifteen years for airlines. Amtrak started with Phase V during '96 with delivery of the P'42's; so using the major airlines as a "measuring stick", "they're due".

Oh and finally, I was at Kravis Center in West Palm for a concert yesterday; no reimaged ALC-42 sightings to report. Concert let out about 4P, or about when 91 and 97 make the scene.

Didn't get lucky.

Tadman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:54 pm It's not about the dollar cost to repaint the fleet. It's about the headquarters priorities. How much brain power is looking at shiny pictures when they should be dealing with the God-awful customer service aboard?

The question that I responded to was:

USRailFan wrote:How much new rolling stock could Amtrak have purchased for the cost of these constant new liveries and subsequent need for repaints over the past 15 years?

which is very much about the cost of repainting a locomotive.

But to address your question: Amtrak management probably spends far less time thinking about paint schemes than they do dealing with Congressional staff about onboard services, since Congressmen seem to have this predilection for dictating details about how Amtrak provides onboard services (like legislating what services can be offered to first class passenger gratis on the Auto Train) and other pet ideas for how to deal with operational subsidies that aren't questioned in the capitol budget (because every congressman would love to tell how they support manufacturing jobs in their district, but I don't recall a single one touting service jobs).

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:55 am From Hilton Suites Boca Raton--

Let's see, how long do airlines go between "re-imagings"?


But it seems like about once every fifteen years for airlines. Amtrak started with Phase V during '96 with delivery of the P'42's; so using the major airlines as a "measuring stick", "they're due".

By my count we had Phase V (blue pinstripes) when the SL2's showed up around 1993, Phase VI when the Acelas showed up around 2000, the coaches reverted back to Phase V because someone didn't like the Lava Lamp amfleets. Then on top of having active Phase V and VI fleets, Boardman brought Phase III back to the new Viewliners. Then NYS did the same thing for the 700's. You also have subfleets for Norcal California, Socal California, and Cascades. Now we have a subfleet for Amtrak midwest. Plus the Phase VIIa and VIIb in 2016 and 2022 when the Siemens engines start showing up.

And somehow we can't seem to figure out how to board the passengers in a normal and uniform method still. The trains are purty but screw the passengers, just bark orders and threats and make them march around like kindergartners.

How often is the CARDINAL hauled by an ALC-42?
Andy

USRailFan wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 11:16 am How much new rolling stock could Amtrak have purchased for the cost of these constant new liveries and subsequent need for repaints over the past 15 years?

Yeah, that's a bit of a silly cost comparison, and the answer is probably zero or close to it.

Painting is part of regular maintenance -- you want to protect metal from corrosion, and in an overhaul, it's necessary to strip paint to fully inspect the underlying structure. Not painting it or not stripping the paint would simply result in higher maintenance expenses later.