AMTRAK in the Orange Line

Would it be possible to outfit the Washington Street subway to run AMTRAK trains from New York City and Providence to continue north on the route to Portland, Maine? Overhead electric would be installed for the AMTRAK trains. Orange Line trains would continue to use the tunnel as well, powered via the third rail.

AMTRAK trains could switch to the Oranage Line where the lines parallel each other adjacent to the Mass Pike. Then there would be another switch north of Community College Station, for the AMTRAK trains to rejoin the AMTRAK line there.

Perhaps an additional underground passenger station, for AMTRAK usage only, could be built just north of the new North Station superstation.

This would all cost a fair amount of money, but would be only a small fraction of the cost of the proposed North-South rail link under the Central Artery.

Creative idea, but two major problems.

One, the physical. Orange Line trains share a common track gauge with railroad equipment, but that's about it. There isn't anywhere close to the vertical or horizontal clearances in the OL tunnels to run full size railroad equipment in there, let alone put the catenary in for Amtrak equipment. In fact, trying to remember off the top of my head, I don't think that even Red Line cars would clear the platform edges on the Orange Line.

Secondly, the FRA will never allow mixing railroad and rapid transit equipment on the same tracks. And with good reason. I wouldn't even want to think about how many of a six car OL train would be demolished if an Acela or an AEM7 rear ended it while it was stopped at Haymarket (or anywhere else). They're just not designed to stand up to 100-150 ton locomotives with a 6-10 car consist behind them.

With tongue firmly planted in cheek, I can't help but note that an inquiry on the Amtrak website asking for train service from New York to Portland will list itineraries that include "2865 - self transfer" or "2867 - self transfer" between Back Bay and North Station. Clicking on these "trains" reveals that they are non-smoking, and that no checked baggage service is available.

Thus, while clearance problems and FRA restrictions prevent physical Amtrak trains from running in the Orange Line tunnels, paper versions run daily .

-John

Secondly, the FRA will never allow mixing railroad and rapid transit equipment on the same tracks. And with good reason. I wouldn't even want to think about how many of a six car OL train would be demolished if an Acela or an AEM7 rear ended it while it was stopped at Haymarket (or anywhere else). They're just not designed to stand up to 100-150 ton locomotives with a 6-10 car consist behind them.

Yeah and it would be a logistical headache to schedule OL and AMTK sefvice on the same track. Also, the Orange tunnels are narrow as stated, and NTM the platforms for the Orange line are a bit lower than Amtrak, so there would be a gap problem, plus no room for the overhead pans and catenary.

ThinkNarrow wrote:With tongue firmly planted in cheek, I can't help but note that an inquiry on the Amtrak website asking for train service from New York to Portland will list itineraries that include "2865 - self transfer" or "2867 - self transfer" between Back Bay and North Station. Clicking on these "trains" reveals that they are non-smoking, and that no checked baggage service is available.

Thus, while clearance problems and FRA restrictions prevent physical Amtrak trains from running in the Orange Line tunnels, paper versions run daily .

-John

You mean you've never seen "Amtrak 2865" on the side of an Orange Line train? Its right there, under the Oak Grove-Forest Hills rollsign! Just in really small print!

Charliemta wrote:Would it be possible to outfit the Washington Street subway to run AMTRAK trains from New York City and Providence to continue north on the route to Portland, Maine?

It's amazing to see how the same idea gets revisited again and again... I proposed it here at this forum two or three years ago

So did I. I proposed that mixed electric/diesel DMU's be
designed specially to fit in orange line tunnels, that could also run down the CR tracks. I still think it's a good idea; however, some kind of special outfitting of new orange line cars would be needed to make them DMU crash-resistant. Also, I think the FRA would have to change the crash regulations to cover the special case of DMU-transit car collisions, which is not by any means the same thing as a transit car hitting a regular locomotive. However, assuming this could be done, I think it would (partially) open up north-south rail travel,
especially for the CR; you could run maybe 4 or 5 DMU
trains per hour through the tunnels in addition to Orange
line trains. It would be much, much cheaper than N-S rail link.

True, and more interesting, but then your talking about retraining the engineers on the 'rules' of the OL. not to mention the switching nightmares, going into and outta the tunnel..

And the NS rail link is cool, big central station @ aquarium, a TBM , though near 8 billion to do, would be VERY cool!

Maybe those phase 3 funds could be diverted...

The thing about the NS rail link is not only would it cost billions, but it would require the rebuilding of North and South Stations. From a historical/railfan perspective, I'd be very sad to see South Station go. After all, it's lasted for over a century.

True, and more interesting, but then your talking about retraining the engineers on the 'rules' of the OL. not to mention the switching nightmares, going into and outta the tunnel..

Citing clearance issues, that would hold true, it's a problem getting out, and also the platform level difference (even by a few inches), and there's no switch to connect the NEC and Orange Line either.

No doubt about it; we'd be talking serious $$$ here. My estimate for a fleet of mixed diesel-electric custom
designed DMU's and appropriate track and switch work
to connect the lines would be $200-300 million, minimum. However, that's still a hell of a lot less than the 8 G for N-S rail link, and you'd get service that would be maybe half as much; much more value for
the $.

Ok, a few things that are missing here...

1. You're not likely to put that many trains through the Orange Line tunnel. Its a pretty safe bet that the next car fleet for the OL (likely to be here before this kind of project could be done) will be larger than the current one, allowing more trains to operate at rush hour. Given teh faily long headways on the OL, the cost effective way to keep pace with increased passenger traffic is to reduce headways. The T has already identified this as a need (the now-defunct idea of using Blue Line cars on the OL).

2. The loading gauges are so far off. There's a 9-15 inch (depending on which commuter rail coach model you compare to) width diparity between FRA railroad equipment and OL cars, not to mention that the floors (and hence platforms) are a lot lower. Something that fits the loading gauge of the OL is going to require very large bridge plates, or its own seperate track and platform, at every stop on the railroad side. No pulling up to the same platforms as everything else at Route 128.

3. There ain't much room inside an OL car. Think about when you put intercity seats in it...probably can't even do 2-2 seating. Restrooms are gonna chew up a huge chunk of the car. And I haven't even gotten to where all the propulsion gear goes (remember, a 600V DC subway car is about as simple as it gets for rail equipment). Metro North is struggling to design a workable 11.5kV AC/750V DC EMU right now, and that's working with full scale railroad equipment.

4. Given the few passengers carried per car, the short trains, and the need for seperate infrastructure at all outlying stations (not to mention catenary to the north -- you ain't gonna get a DMU/EMU into this tight package), I question whether the cost savings would really be that great on a cost-per-passenger basis. If the money is to be spent, better to spend a bit more on a true rail link than a half solution that delivers far less than half the value.

darksun23c wrote:The thing about the NS rail link is not only would it cost billions, but it would require the rebuilding of North and South Stations. From a historical/railfan perspective, I'd be very sad to see South Station go. After all, it's lasted for over a century.

Well IIRC, the plan called for portals right after north station (@ the yards) and right after south station, and near back bay!

I believe that the stations needed to be relocated, I read about it in the studies on the T's website. But hey, if South Station could survive, all the better!

(North Station should be rebuilt NOW!)

In the reports I've seen, the North and South Station rail terminals would remain intact, and be bypassed by the new N-S Rail Link tunnel. Seprate underground staions would be built next to the existing stations.

Several have mentioned the issue of difference in platform height required for the OL trains vs. the AMTRAK trains. The AMTRAK trains wouldn't have to use the OL stations, except for Back Bay and North Station. At those stations extensions of the platforms, for AMTRAK use only, could be built, set at the proper height.