Amtrak in 2011: 40 years of being America's Railroad...

Mike, it appears you asked a "two parter".

First, the Lakeland-Naples "Doodlebug" lasted until A-Day; here's a photo (the photographer I've met "along the way'):

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=2105449

Now, second, regarding the statement of SCL passenger service as a whole. I've learned that SCL darned near stayed out. The lights burned late at 500 Water in the days leading up to A-Day and that then-SCL CEO Prime Osborn was personally involved in the decision process.

On A-Day eve, or so what I learned, is that SCL was making an avoidable cost (out of pocket; whatever) profit on their passenger operations, but when they considered that Amtrak could break the interchange at Wash and adversely affect the business, they had best factor that in. Even worse would have been if RF&P stayed out, then how would a rousting of passengers at Richmond go down? What if the connecting Amtrak train at Richmond was "uh, not so convenient'.

Also, even though the SAL had placed new equipment in service as late as 1956 (15 years old on A-Day), it would eventually have to be replaced. All told, it was best to sign up - and so they did.

Of course, many here have contended that Amtrak failed, or simply chose not, to recognize that they had a "unique" long distance East Coast market in which the business had simply not dried up, but of course, whoever heard of JetBlue and/or a deregulated air transport industry back then?

Great picture, Gil; thanks for that.

Yes, I forgot to consider that NY-Miami involved at least three railroads, so things would certainly have been dicey at best for SCL to "hang in there."

You're right, though, in that early Amtrak never built up their I-95 corridor operations.

Noel Weaver wrote:Looking back now, if Amtrak had not been created, by now virtually all of the intercity passenger trains today would have been history.

No, I think that even if Amtrak hadn't been formed, you'd still see passenger rail in several corridors, largely supported by state funds. Commuter rail authorities would have eventually filled gaps in service. Similarly, a number of long distance trains would have lingered into the 1980s, and perhaps might have even survived into the present day with subsidies. Yes, many areas would have lost service, leaving many gaps in service, but as we all know, several carriers weren't anxious to join Amtrak. Even without Amtrak, there would have been trains from New York to Florida and New Orleans and Chicago to California transcontinental service. However, Northeast Corridor improvements would have been difficult to fund, and it seems certain that the wires would have come down in marginal areas of electrification. Similarly, you wouldn't have seen the Empire Connection in New York or station improvements in Boston and Washington without Amtrak.

On the plus side, if there had been no Amtrak, and once Mr. Norman's possible "and passenger" Conrail had objected to operating "and passenger" service, a Northeast Corridor Rail Passenger Authority might have come into being. Run-through commuter trains from Danbury to Morristown, from Doylestown to Atlantic City (dual-modes for that one) and from Baltimore to Fredericksburg? The Pennsylvanian looping through Market East from NYP to PGH, via a new North Philadelphia connection? Hey, why not, if one entity owns the entire corridor and operates both commuter and intercity service for all the states involved.

The states wouldn't have liked ceding control over their heavy rail service to their neighbors, but it would have been a lot cheaper than contracting from Conrail, doing it themselves, or losing it altogether.

I still imagine what if Conrail did not cease commuter service (or if suppose agencies such as the MTA had cease to exist): Metro-North's Hudson, Harlem and New Haven lines could be operated by CSX today. NJT's routes could be a mix of Conrail/CSX/NS/M&E/SRNJ service, and else.

Ocala Mike wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:
I had other friends who rode the last Danbury - Pittsfield train or last branch line trains in Florida but this is what I chose to do.

Noel Weaver

Noel (or anyone on here), do you have any information on the last branch line trains in Florida that you mention? I'm interested in what A-Day looked like here in the Sunshine State, but didn't want to start another thread about this. Wasn't NY-Florida a profitable route for anyone (ACL, Seaboard, FEC), or did everyone heed the call to "come on down" by air and road by then?

My last SCL timetable before Amtrak showed the following:
Tampa - Bradenton - Sarasota - Venice
Lakeland - Fort Myers - Naples
Jacksonville - Clearwater (and St. Petersburg) via Gainesville, Ocala, Leesburg and Dunedin (former ACL for the most part)
It also included the presently dormat New Orleans - Jacksonville line which hosted the daily Gulf Wind.
Just about everything else was gone by this time (December 11, 1970)
The SCL at this time was still running some locals between Richmond and Jacksonville or intermediate points and at this time for the most part the mail contracts were gone, they lost a lot on these mostly coach locals. None of them survived to this point south of Jacksonville.
Noel Weaver

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:Looking back now, if Amtrak had not been created, by now virtually all of the intercity passenger trains today would have been history.

No, I think that even if Amtrak hadn't been formed, you'd still see passenger rail in several corridors, largely supported by state funds. Commuter rail authorities would have eventually filled gaps in service. Similarly, a number of long distance trains would have lingered into the 1980s, and perhaps might have even survived into the present day with subsidies. Yes, many areas would have lost service, leaving many gaps in service, but as we all know, several carriers weren't anxious to join Amtrak. Even without Amtrak, there would have been trains from New York to Florida and New Orleans and Chicago to California transcontinental service. However, Northeast Corridor improvements would have been difficult to fund, and it seems certain that the wires would have come down in marginal areas of electrification. Similarly, you wouldn't have seen the Empire Connection in New York or station improvements in Boston and Washington without Amtrak.

I will stick by my statement, VIRTUALLY ALL meaning that the commuter trains operating with government support would have remained in operation and most like Boston - Washington. Little if anything else. Consider what is presently running in California, the Southern Pacific was extremely anti passenger and maybe the San Francisco - San Jose commuter service would have survived but don't believe for one minute that anything else would have had a chance on the entire SP, they wanted out in a big way. Penn Central had papers in to discontinue all passenger service west of Harrisburg and Buffalo and without Amtrak they may well have been able to do so, passenger service was pretty well washed up by this time.
By Amtrak day in 1971 the Penn Central had some support from most of the states where they were operating commuter trains and it would get better after that too.
Noel Weaver

mtuandrew wrote:On the plus side, if there had been no Amtrak, and once Mr. Norman's possible "and passenger" Conrail had objected to operating "and passenger" service.....

I would like to clarify Mr. Stephens point, which as a reader will see is essentially "on-mark", regarding my use of the phrase "and passenger" as it relates to Conrail.

What I have stated in the past is that had RPSA '70, the Amtrak enabling legislation, not been enacted, the Conrail enabling legislation, the Railroad Revitalization and Reorganization Act of 1973 (3R), would simply have included the phrase "and passenger" in place of the "no passengers", or at least for their own account, that is within the Act. This would have provided a mechanism to have NECorridor services continue with Federal funding.

But had this come to pass, I would not rule out that "Congo' coaches, including the 1963-64 Sleeper rebuilds, would still be in revenue service, and that the East End (NHV-BOS) would simply be a 'strong feeder' as is NY-Albany NH-Spfld, and Phl-Hbg.

NH-Bos Electrification, Acela? WAZZAT.

Hey Everyone!

One of our most respected members, George O'Keefe, i.e. member "gokeefe", has contribued an article on this very topic, which I have posted to our articles section: http://www.railroad.net/articles/column ... entury.php

Take a gander at it, and if you feel like commenting, please do so here! Respectfully, of course...

I am working on adding some additional content contributed by other members, so keep an eye out!

Jeff Smith
Site Admin

I read gokeefe's article, and it is spot on. It should be REQUIRED READING for every legislator and tv/radio political commentator. Great job!

Gilbert B Norman wrote: What I have stated in the past is that had RPSA '70, the Amtrak enabling legislation, not been enacted, the Conrail enabling legislation, the Railroad Revitalization and Reorganization Act of 1973 (3R), would simply have included the phrase "and passenger" in place of the "no passengers", or at least for their own account, that is within the Act. This would have provided a mechanism to have NECorridor services continue with Federal funding.

Conrail's mission was to create a profitable and sustainable operation from the wreckage of the PC and the other decrepit northeastern railroads. Granted, there wasn't real urgency on the financial front until the Reagan administration, but it seems unlikely that intercity passenger rail would ever have been a mandate of Conrail, since such operations are inherently money losing. Similarly, as a regional operator, Conrail wouldn't have garnered the nationwide support for federal funding of major improvements to the Northeast Corridor.

Jeff Smith wrote:I'll be posting an article on this very subject shortly by one of our esteemed members. Stay tuned.....

Quote from the noted article by Mr. O'Keefe:

Due to a combination of factors famously described in a Trains magazine article from April 1959 titled "Who Shot the Passenger Train?" by Mr. David P. Morgan, passenger rail service had become a burden which the railroads were eager to shed. Today, Amtrak continues to function as the lone national operator of intercity passenger rail service. As before there are a few anomalous operators who might be considered intercity either by quirks of law or regulation but none of them are serious contenders for imminent national expansion of passenger operations.

That work by DPM was likely the most comprehensive, unbiased, and informed piece on the state of passenger railroad transportation ever to appear in a mass circulation publication.

A point I would like to add is that DPM envisioned within that "a separate company to run passenger trains". While of course government involvement in anything to the conservative Hibernian bard was a no-no, he envisioned that the "separate company' would be launched and funded by the railroads themselves - exactly how the framers of RPSA '70 envisioned (well, at least within the language of the Act).

But again, if DPM at that time realized he was "lighting the fire" for creation of another government agency, I think his thoughts would have been different. Unfortunately, he did not live to see the day where the agency was starting to provide meaningful transportation in markets away from the Northeast Corridor.

David P. Morgan may also have read Hungerford's 1945 novel, RAILROADS OF TOMORROW: 1960, a fictional "history" of a future U.S. Railroad. Way back when there were books, of course.

Artur Honegger, considering that Hungerford op cit is ex libris and was purchased from Kalmbach, I'd dare say DPM did read such.

However, in "Who Shot...", DPM presents pragmatic advice as to what future role (and even during those dark days, he never said "if any") rail passenger service would play, and was not concerned with the likes of a "Northern Lights Express" operating San Francisco (SF; not Oakland)-Fairbanks over a newly build "Alcan Railway".

Hungerford was an author and impressario, not an insightful journalist.

David P. Morgan outclasses Ayn Rand (ATLAS SHRUGGED) as well.

Mr. Hungerford did, however, envision using the NYC West Side Freight Line for passenger service, although not into Penn Station, but to a "Grand Central Terminal West".