Amtrak Downeaster Discussion Thread

[gokeefe]

DE runs the risk of bumping 1 BON-POR commuter for each 1 BON-Rockland ticket it wants to sell. That's bad.

That does not match my impression. HHL appears most likely to be affected.

[MEC407]

Borrow a GP38-3 with HEP from Amtrak to power a set of "borrowed K" cars(max 3,with 1 car as a cab car)
If possible slip in an Amfleet Food service between the coaches.
MBTA power should be avoided for a middle distance run to Portland/Rockland

The GP38-3s are limited to 65 MPH. Your borrowed Geep just imposed a bunch of speed restrictions between Plaistow and Portland.

[Dick H]

Regarding a Dover ""turn", after the B&M ended passenger service to Portland on January 3rd, 1965,
they continued to run one weekday round trip from Dover to Boston until June 30 1967. The B&M
headquarters was still on Causeway Street in Boston and a sizeable number of the employees still
resided in Dover and Exeter. Coincidently, I just ran across this series of photos, which includes
the departure of the last train from the little block station at Dover (fourth photo down), located
where the new Downeaster station was built in 2001. There are also photos of the B&M freight
hauling the Budd RDC consist back to Lawrence on July 1, 1967 (photos seven, eight and nine)
Few, if any, of the passengers on the last train were likely thinking that there would be four and
later five round trips from Portland and Dover to Boston, beginning 34 years later in 2001,

https://wxtoad.com/index.php/railroad-p ... budd-rdc-s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Photos by Ted Houghton.

[gokeefe]

The photos of the freight run with empty passenger cars are particularly poignant. Thanks for sharing.

[troffey]

The CCRTA "wet-lease" is nothing more than reimbursement of Keolis for the costs incurred from Middleborough to Hyannis, on a scheduled evening train. It is not taking a set completely from Keolis service.

Please update your information. Maybe by reviewing the Cape Flyer thread starting in 2015. The CF was an extended CR train only for its 2013 & 2014 season.

Since the start of 2015 service, the Cape Flyer has, contrary to your outdated understanding, taken a set* completely from Keolis service, as its own dedicated trainset (skipping most commuter stops) rather than being an extension of a scheduled evening train.

As was reported in 2015

"In previous years, the Friday night train, which left South Station at 5:12 p.m., was part of the MBTA commuter rail service, so passengers going to the Cape had to make eight stops on the way to Middleborough. This year, a train just for Cape riders will leave South Station at 5:50 p.m. on Fridays and bypass most of those stops, shaving off a little bit of trip time.

MBTA and Keolis have supported the Cape Flyer service on that basis in the 2015, 2016, and 2017 seasons, and the point stands that whatever its other problems or limitations, MBTA+Keolis have been able to find one double-engine trainset starting at the "back end" of the Friday rush. To support a "Portland Extra" (to drain commuters off an already oversold but extendable Friday PM DE), I'd posit that Keolis should be able to find a trainset and extra engine on the northside, despite its smaller equipment pool.

I'm open to examining any objections to the idea that a NNEPRA + MBTA/Keolis deal might not work, but the following obstacles have already been overcome:

1) Delivering dedicated pick-of-the-litter equipment* at the end of Friday rush hours (and all weekend, naturally), as CCRTA/Cape Flyer got every week, all summer, for three summers (2015 - 2017 so far)
2) MBTA/Keolis being happy to operate of out district for anyone willing to pay equipment and crew (as both RIDOT & CCRTA have always done)
3) MBTA/Keolis being happy to operate across state lines as long as a sponsor pays (as RIDOT does)

* Which they've learned needs to have an engine at both ends to make sure it can self-rescue if one engine dies "out there"

I stand corrected on the nature of the run. However, I think my overall point might not have been as clear as I thought: Keolis doesn't have a say in this. Both the Pilgrim Agreement and the Cape Flyer pre-date them, and are supported by Mass DOT. It's clearly physically possible for Keolis to provide equipment (although at what cost to other service we don't know). But I don't see Keolis taking on any additional out of district equipment requirements unless forced.

[sicariis]

Mr. O’Keefe: has NNEPRA ever spoken with UNH about a short-turn Wildcat Flyer to Durham or Dover? If New Hampshire isn’t willing to fund something on its own, maybe the towns and institutions would be. (Apologies if this has been hashed over here or in the MBTA forum.)

UNH already runs bus service to Dover so they're likely they're content with that. There were brief discussions a few years ago for Faculty/Staff/Students discounts commuting EXR-DHM-EXR but nothing ever materialized.

From their most recent transportation projects update:

In coordination with NNEPRA and Pan Am the University encourages the NHDOT to discuss targeted capital enhancements to the rail corridor in New Hampshire that would lead to enhanced service reliability and capacity. The state should encourage crossing improvements, bridge replacements, power backup for key crossing controls and siding development which will benefit NH passenger and freight service.

https://www.unh.edu/transportation/site ... g_2017.pdf

[Hux]

Regarding a Dover ""turn", after the B&M ended passenger service to Portland on January 3rd, 1965,
they continued to run one weekday round trip from Dover to Boston until June 30 1967. The B&M
headquarters was still on Causeway Street in Boston and a sizeable number of the employees still
resided in Dover and Exeter. Coincidently, I just ran across this series of photos, which includes
the departure of the last train from the little block station at Dover (fourth photo down), located
where the new Downeaster station was built in 2001. There are also photos of the B&M freight
hauling the Budd RDC consist back to Lawrence on July 1, 1967 (photos seven, eight and nine)
Few, if any, of the passengers on the last train were likely thinking that there would be four and
later five round trips from Portland and Dover to Boston, beginning 34 years later in 2001,

https://wxtoad.com/index.php/railroad-p ... budd-rdc-s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Photos by Ted Houghton.

Thanks for posting these. My grandfather drove my grandmother and me to Exeter to catch the "last" train to Dover. It was an early birthday present (7-1-'62) and one of my fondest memories of my grandparents.

As the train was pulling into the depot in Exeter a dog crossed the tracks in front of the consist. The blast of the horn scared the crap out of me, and according to the grandparents I jumped as high as my grandmother's waist.

We rode on the right side and I had the window. I think I saw more cows on that one trip than I have since. I was especially thrilled getting a view of the action in the small yard by the station.

That trip sparked my interest in trains and nearly every time I was in Dover my grandfather would take me over to the freight house to watch the action in the "big yard."

[gokeefe]

Mr. O’Keefe: has NNEPRA ever spoken with UNH about a short-turn Wildcat Flyer to Durham or Dover? If New Hampshire isn’t willing to fund something on its own, maybe the towns and institutions would be. (Apologies if this has been hashed over here or in the MBTA forum.)

UNH already runs the Wildcat Transit to Dover. Not sure if you were referring to a modification which would result in a tighter schedule (e.g. every 20-30 minutes). Wildcat Transit is an FTA funded service which is great in many ways but also means that there is a cap on funding based on population served etc. If the towns wanted more than they have right now they would probably have to pay 100% of the cost themselves. I am confident they are not interested or able in doing this given what I am sure they consider to be an already high level of service.

[Cowford]

2) Block seats on the 5pm departure for X number of Rockland branch riders. And how many could they block without ticking off a lot of regular riders, esp. commuters.

The Haverhill block offers an interesting opportunity to address this issue. There are a fair number of commuters who do in fact ride BON-HHL on 685 and 687.

GOKeefe, could you please explain what the "Haverhill block" is (you're implying NNEPRA reserves space for Haverhill riders?!?), how big it is, and what you propose doing with it (sounds like kicking Haverhill riders off and onto MBTA trains).

[gokeefe]

The Downeaster is a reserved train. The only exception is monthly pass holders. My understanding is that there are indeed some blocks set aside for certain destinations. I would imagine some of this is done to ensure that New Hampshire doesn't sell out the inventory and effectively block travel from/to Maine.

Whether the HHL block is just a small set aside for monthly pass holders or actual reserved space I don't know. As it stands right now there are at least a dozen daily riders for Haverhill on 687. It's probably more than that because I'm pretty sure I didn't count everyone who got off.

[Arlington]

The Downeaster is a reserved train. The only exception is monthly pass holders. My understanding is that there are indeed some blocks set aside for certain destinations. I would imagine some of this is done to ensure that New Hampshire doesn't sell out the inventory and effectively block travel from/to Maine.

Whether the HHL block is just a small set aside for monthly pass holders or actual reserved space I don't know. As it stands right now there are at least a dozen daily riders for Haverhill on 687. It's probably more than that because I'm pretty sure I didn't count everyone who got off.

Ok, but if we say "bump 12 HHL riders to clear a seat at BON on train 685" you've pretty much limited BON-originating ridership on the whole of Maine Eastern to 12 on a train that holds, what, 300?

The real problem is that train 685 is already a sold out winner, so there's very small upside in extending it (unless you thought you were going to fill it with riders originating at POR), since it has no spare capacity to accommodate tourists out of BON.
So either:
- Add capacity at 5pm by using an MBTA Portland Flyer (so as to sell lots of BON-originating tickets out the Maine Eastern
- Extend the undersold trains: 681 (9:05am departure for early afternoon arrival in Rockland), 683 (1:10pm departure for "dinner time" arrival in Rockland), 687 (for "leave after rush hour" / arrive very late, just like if you'd left late by car). 681, 683, and 687 would all make fine "3-day weekend" market trains. But DO NOT extend train (like 685) that does not have empty seats enough to capture all the BON-MEC traffic that you need/want.

[gokeefe]

Take another look. I'm hypothesizing 687 not 685.

There is no concern about limiting BON originating ridership. What I think might happen is more commuters buying monthly passes if reserved space becomes constrained in the south.

As things stand right now ridership is so heavy at that time of year that the trainsets might just get extended anyways. October was a new record and that's with three days of lost ridership. The pace does not seem to be letting up and everyone is very surprised.

[CN9634]

With the proper data of both Point of Entry and Point of Departure for passengers using ticket sales one should be able to build a robust model (standard statistical analysis) for the past few years to forecast the growth and determine what is the appropriate path forward for the service in conjunction with appropriate market data. Throwing darts on the wall to see what sticks doesn't lend much to the tax payers use of $$.

[Rockingham Racer]

Why can't Haverhill become an "R" stop east and a "D" stop west? This was the case on Metro North for years at Poughkeepsie and Croton.

[deathtopumpkins]

Why can't Haverhill become an "R" stop east and a "D" stop west? This was the case on Metro North for years at Poughkeepsie and Croton.

And is already the case for the Downeaster at Woburn.