Lower Montauk Division Discussion

Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

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nyandw
Posts: 3689
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:41 am

Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by nyandw » Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:14 pm

[quote="Tadman"] "...Again, not worth splitting such minute hairs on a railfan forum..."

Why not (where else)? There are 1000's of times minutiae creates threads of length, some silly and some to clarify historical errors, add new data, provide links to new info, etc. as I have learned below.

I enjoyed the cartoon/comment. I went to a bunch of railroad slang pages and the page I have complied over the years: http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/lirrslang.htm Additions welcome.

They all indicate the common usage of "deadhead". Thus it appears that the only small difference as Tadman indicates is that on the LIRR, equipment not in service being moved is referred to as an "equipment train". The LIRR, has in its entire history, pioneered some new technology, had its share of "firsts", made some bad mistakes (lots of railroads), and developed its own rail lingo/slang/definitions (see link above).

Tadman: I do agree that, I believe, you are trying to move this topic along and get it back to "Lower Montauk" It's another example of thread "hijack", and I'm guilty folks here also.
SlackControl: Agree.

Here's some LIRR material about the area: http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/montau ... cutoff.htm

Dave Barraza"s photo is just east of Greenpoint Ave. Bliss Cabin in service 10/12/60 N side of tracks just west of Greenpoint Ave. Dave Keller Info.

Teutobergerwald
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by Teutobergerwald » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:04 pm

The work day brought me to Forest Park today, and in particular, the Lower Montauk tracks and the signal, S67, that controls eastbound movement there. The signal was dark. Did the LIRR pull the plug on the signals when they transferred the trackage to NYA control, or is that signal only activated when a train is approaching?
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Jersey_Mike
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Location: CHARLES aka B&P JCT MP 95.9

Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by Jersey_Mike » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:21 am

If you search the FRA website you can see if the LIRR/NYA applied to abandon the signaling system. I think technically the system can be removed from service without being abandoned, but turning off the power might not be permissible in that situation.

lirr42
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Location: Montauk, NY (MP 115.8)

Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by lirr42 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:37 pm

Jersey_Mike wrote:If you search the FRA website you can see if the LIRR/NYA applied to abandon the signaling system. I think technically the system can be removed from service without being abandoned, but turning off the power might not be permissible in that situation.
I thought it was all Manual Block down those parts and thus has no signal system to remove...
(I could be confused, though, I thought Manual Block has no signalling system and that's why they're getting rid of it)

EM2000
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by EM2000 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:18 am

Yes, you are confused. The Lower Montauk has been downgraded from main track 251 with a current of traffic to a secondary track. BTW, manual block is a form of signaling.

Jersey_Mike
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Location: CHARLES aka B&P JCT MP 95.9

Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by Jersey_Mike » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:36 am

EM2000 wrote:Yes, you are confused. The Lower Montauk has been downgraded from main track 251 with a current of traffic to a secondary track. BTW, manual block is a form of signaling.
Is "secondary track" some odd LIRR method of operation?

freightguy
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Location: Medford, NY

Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by freightguy » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:06 am

Some of the signals are lit up or atleast they were recently. Eventually with no signal maintenance the bulbs will start to burn out. I think that leaves Oyster Bay and Babylon to PD last 2 territories with 251-D current of traffic. The way NYAR runs west on TRK 2 under 251-D manual block rules would be in effect. LIRR guys is this listed as a secondary track(s) of no assigned direction, do the work trains still go to Pond to pickup stone etc...?
Signed off

jayrmli
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Location: Moriches, NY

Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by jayrmli » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:28 am

It's an NYAR secondary track, not LIRR, so it's probably not even in the LIRR timetable anymore. I'm assuming it has been deleted from the station pages in the timetable. Movement on the branch is under the authority of NYAR, not LIRR.
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EM2000
Posts: 196
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by EM2000 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:53 pm

It is listed in the timetable, as LIRR crews are still qualified to run over it. Jersey_Mike, a secondary track is non-main track where a whole different set of rules apply. As far as I know, other RR's have secondaries as well.

freightguy
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Location: Medford, NY

Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by freightguy » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:40 pm

Fremont right above the Lower MTK at Fresh Pond Jct is a secondary track for CSX.
Signed off

ExCon90
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by ExCon90 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:19 pm

Secondary tracks were common on the PRR (presumably that's how they found their way to the LIRR); I think the designation stemmed from a definition in ICC regulations, which was possibly brought along into FRA regs. More flexibility and fewer restrictions, probably acceptable in territory that only sees one movement at a time anyway.

DaveBarraza
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: Out Past Ronkonkoma, NY

Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by DaveBarraza » Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:04 pm

Some RR's refer to "Secondary Track" as "Other Than Main Track"

When I was at Bliss in March, the EB signals was lit. When I was there two weeks ago, the signal was dark!


Jay: You say that Jamaica - Bliss is still in the LIRR timetable, but what about NYAR using GCOR instead of LIRR rules? Are there LIRR T&E employees who have qualified on GCOR?

Uncle Cheapo
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by Uncle Cheapo » Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:42 pm

LIRR equipment and work trains run on the lower Montauk all the time. Both tracks are now considered secondaries of no assigned direction. Lirr just needs permission from the NYA yard master to occupy a track at restricted speed, and presto, they are on the move. And GCOR is not in effect out there, so no pilots needed. Just plain ole verbal permission, nothing else.

LIengineerBob
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:22 pm

Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by LIengineerBob » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:02 am

What would be the point of the NYAR operating under GCOR if those rules DO NOT APPLY on any portion of track they operate on?? The NYAR cannot just say, to hell with the LIRR operating rules, we want to use GCOR. When they operate on LIRR main tracks, LIRR operating rules are in effect. Just like Amtrak when traveling off the Northeast corridor, the hosts railroads rules are in effect, not NORAC. Amtrak cannot just say we use NORAC, to hell with your rules.

All the other tracks are secondaries, yard track or sidings, so whether they use GCOR or LIRR operating rules is irrelevant as the rules in either book are pretty much the same regarding those types of tracks and their usage.

jayrmli
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Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:23 pm
Location: Moriches, NY

Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Post by jayrmli » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:07 am

No rules...just verbal permission. Sounds like the wild west. Is the crew required to wear cowboy hats over the line?
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