Adirondack suspended starting 5/20/2024

[dowlingm]

The alternative would be to route Adironadack (and Vermonter in the future) via the CPKC Lacolle Subdivision, but the CP track does not have a route to Central Station, instead terminating at Exo’s Lucien L’Allier. This would reduce the convenience factor for travellers wishing to connect onwards.

Mr. Dowling, in an effort to reconcile my earlier posting with your captioned quote, the Napier Junction Railway, NJ, which I think was the D&H's Canadian subsidiary is now the CPKC LaColle Sub and only runs into what was Windsor Station?

Yes - the Napierville Junction is now CPKC Lacolle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napiervil ... on_Railway

It goes as far as Delson (27 miles from Rouses Point) and then the Adirondack Sub brings the train into the city proper, after which the Vaudreuil and Westmount Subs complete the route to the terminus. This was the route for Amtrak Adirondack until 1986.

However, Lucien L'Allier is not "what was Windsor Station" - it is a bunch of commuter platforms plunked 200m west of that, with a hockey arena (Bell Centre) in between.

[twropr]

CP has an interchange with CN near or thru St. Luc Yard. What kind of investment
would it require to handle the ADIRONDACK over CP via Delson and over to CN via
St. Luc, and would it be practical to reach Central Station via this interchange?
Andy

[dowlingm]

CP has an interchange with CN near or thru St. Luc Yard. What kind of investment
would it require to handle the ADIRONDACK over CP via Delson and over to CN via
St. Luc, and would it be practical to reach Central Station via this interchange?
Andy

hard to imagine CN being happy to see more passenger movements through Taschereau Yard (Jonquiere-Senneterre service) even if CP were content to move the train through their own yard.

The other possibilities would include building a minimum radius CP-CN curve around the FedEx property, or rebuilding the link between CP Lacolle and CN Massema Spur at Delson, either as a reinstated diamond or an underpass. But if you’ve got that sort of money, you can probably get Rouses Point to 59 for less, no? This is one of those things where if there was an easy or economical answer, it would have surely have happened already.

[Mackensen]

CP has an interchange with CN near or thru St. Luc Yard. What kind of investment
would it require to handle the ADIRONDACK over CP via Delson and over to CN via
St. Luc, and would it be practical to reach Central Station via this interchange?
Andy

hard to imagine CN being happy to see more passenger movements through Taschereau Yard (Jonquiere-Senneterre service) even if CP were content to move the train through their own yard.

The other possibilities would include building a minimum radius CP-CN curve around the FedEx property, or rebuilding the link between CP Lacolle and CN Massema Spur at Delson, either as a reinstated diamond or an underpass. But if you’ve got that sort of money, you can probably get Rouses Point to 59 for less, no? This is one of those things where if there was an easy or economical answer, it would have surely have happened already.

Lucien-L'Allier is getting canopies over the platforms within the next year: https://exo.quebec/en/news/achievements ... er-station. If the choice is some unquantifiable loss of creature comforts vs dealing with CN, I would think Amtrak's taking a hard look at an all-CP routing north of the border. The Adirondack sub already hosts passenger trains. I wouldn't think onward travel is a major problem; Gare Centrale is a few blocks away and the Adirondack's schedule doesn't accommodate same-day connections.

[west point]

At the location in Montreal where CP goes over CN would it be possible the build a connection in the SE corner enabling Adirondack to join the CN 4-track main going to the station.

[RandallW]

Amtrak asked Congress to budget $30 million dollars in FY 25 to spend in Canada and upstate New York to among other things, improve the Adirondack, enable the extension of the Vermonter to Montreal, and build a pre-clearance facility in Montreal for CBP (so passengers clear customs before boarding the train).

[Tadman]

Remember, this is in a foreign country. Amtrak has no statutory authority in Canada. CN can and does whatever it damn well pleases and it seems to please CN to piss off Amtrak whenever it can.

Amtrak has no statutory authority in Canada. It basically has no statutory authority in the USA. Shouldn't matter as any serious legal action will focus on contract law in either country. Let me explain:

Statutory authority in USA: There are laws that says Amtrak has priority. There are very few teeth to those laws, such as enforcement options. The law basically says "Amtrak shall have priority". Contrast that with other laws, such as speeding laws that say "motorists shall observe the law or be fined and have points assessed on their license giving a higher insurance premium". Because there are no teeth, there is little for the Freights to be afraid of in delaying Amtrak trains.

Statutory authority in Canada: There flat out is none for Amtrak.

Contract law in either country: Amtrak does have contracts in place with the Freights offering schedule bonuses. They have a much greater chance of recovering damages based on their contracts, that both sides willingly entered into, than a toothless law(s) enacted in 1971 and 1997.

[Railjunkie]

Once again how does Amtrak turn and service the train IF it ends up at what was once Windsor Station. There are no facilities for such. As I said in a previous post this was looked at many years ago and come top think of it not that long ago either. It did not happen then so why would it happen now. What you fail to understand this is not the first dance between CN and Amtrak over the Rouses Point Sub and it will not be the last.

As for Taschereau Yard idea long ago in a land far far away Amtrak crews were qualified towards the yard. We would come over the bridge and bend to the left past the MMC down the grade. Then back around into the station. This move is now verboten by CN, qualified on this move about 20 years ago so its been a while. Anyone with a good map from St Lambert in I could see it in my sleep.

[NH2060]

*Old man voice* “And *that* boys and girls is what set off the U.S.-Canadian Cold War of 2024. A decrepit section of railway!” All kidding aside..

At the location in Montreal where CP goes over CN would it be possible the build a connection in the SE corner enabling Adirondack to join the CN 4-track main going to the station.

Nope, the area in that vicinity is a residential neighborhood so building any connection would be impossible.

Statutory authority in Canada: There flat out is none for Amtrak.

Not even VIA has any clout and they’re *Canadian* so yeah good luck on the Uncle Sam express getting any courtesy.

Once again how does Amtrak turn and service the train IF it ends up at what was once Windsor Station. There are no facilities for such. As I said in a previous post this was looked at many years ago and come top think of it not that long ago either. It did not happen then so why would it happen now. What you fail to understand this is not the first dance between CN and Amtrak over the Rouses Point Sub and it will not be the last.

Be that as it may, in the 14 years I’ve been a member here I’ve never once heard of the Adirondack being flat out *cancelled* for prolonged periods of time (and twice within the same 365 day time period to boot) due to unacceptably poor track conditions. Couple that with the fact that the train is one of the better financially performing services outside the NEC -and with Montreal being responsible for the majority of the ridership/revenue north of Albany- I don’t see how this wouldn’t move the needle on Amtrak’s end to make some kind of a change.


Now there *is* one other option though I don’t see it happening in the near future if ever:

1) have the Adirondack use the CPKC tracks from the border to Delson and
2) use a rebuilt balloon loop just south of the maintenance depot/supply yard east of the railway museum and then
3) have it traverse a new at-grade crossover to connect it to the tracks that run through Candiac and La Prairie that then connect to the existing route south of Castle Gardens.

Not ideal and would be far from cheap, but it would avoid the Rouses Point Sub in the long term.

[Gilbert B Norman]

If it weren't for the Belmont Stakes being held at Saratoga this year on June 8, they'd probably whack the whole thing for the duration.

[dowlingm]

Once again how does Amtrak turn and service the train IF it ends up at what was once Windsor Station. There are no facilities for such.

IIRC Amtrak backs out of Central for turning/servicing at VIA Montreal Maintenance Centre. I suppose in theory they could contract with Exo to do that at Lachine Maintenance Centre? The problem being, unless Exo is a buyer for surplus VIA P42s, that Exo doesn't have any other exposure to GE that I know of.

[Train60]

Important to keep in mind that at some stage Amtrak's Vermonter service is to be extended to Montreal.

The Vermonter would enter Canada on the CN Swanton Sub and then join the CN Rouses Point Sub in Cantic. There's currently no way to get from the Swanton Sub to the CPKC Lacolle Sub according to the track layout shown on this OpenRailwayMap,
https://www.openrailwaymap.org/?style=s ... 45&zoom=13

So this basically rules out using the Lacolle Sub.

[Allouette]

The old Canada Atlantic right-of-way west of Cantic (towards Valleyfield, QC) is still intact, but there never was a connection in the NE quadrant of the crossing with the NJ.

[Railjunkie]

If it weren't for the Belmont Stakes being held at Saratoga this year on June 8, they'd probably whack the whole thing for the duration.

Doubtful Mr. Norman Saratoga is quite a draw in the summer especially the ponies. Travers day at the races aka The
Mid Summer Derby it is a week long party leading up to the race. In the not to distant past Amtrak ran a special train NYP-SAR just for the ponies on the weekend it had some sponsorship from NYRA and OTB I believe, the train always did well in ridership.
Back in my LSA days caught the Ethan Allen out of NYP extra on the Friday before Travers. Sold out train till Saratoga and a line I could not break. If the weather is good the trains will be busy this summer in Saratoga during racing season.

[Railjunkie]

*Old man voice* “And *that* boys and girls is what set off the U.S.-Canadian Cold War of 2024. A decrepit section of railway!” All kidding aside..

At the location in Montreal where CP goes over CN would it be possible the build a connection in the SE corner enabling Adirondack to join the CN 4-track main going to the station.

Nope, the area in that vicinity is a residential neighborhood so building any connection would be impossible.

Statutory authority in Canada: There flat out is none for Amtrak.

Not even VIA has any clout and they’re *Canadian* so yeah good luck on the Uncle Sam express getting any courtesy.

Once again how does Amtrak turn and service the train IF it ends up at what was once Windsor Station. There are no facilities for such. As I said in a previous post this was looked at many years ago and come top think of it not that long ago either. It did not happen then so why would it happen now. What you fail to understand this is not the first dance between CN and Amtrak over the Rouses Point Sub and it will not be the last.

Be that as it may, in the 14 years I’ve been a member here I’ve never once heard of the Adirondack being flat out *cancelled* for prolonged periods of time (and twice within the same 365 day time period to boot) due to unacceptably poor track conditions. Couple that with the fact that the train is one of the better financially performing services outside the NEC -and with Montreal being responsible for the majority of the ridership/revenue north of Albany- I don’t see how this wouldn’t move the needle on Amtrak’s end to make some kind of a change.


Now there *is* one other option though I don’t see it happening in the near future if ever:

1) have the Adirondack use the CPKC tracks from the border to Delson and
2) use a rebuilt balloon loop just south of the maintenance depot/supply yard east of the railway museum and then
3) have it traverse a new at-grade crossover to connect it to the tracks that run through Candiac and La Prairie that then connect to the existing route south of Castle Gardens.

Not ideal and would be far from cheap, but it would avoid the Rouses Point Sub in the long term.

If my brain still works correctly Castle Gardens is located on the Rouses Point Sub, There once was a rule as you went by locations you would have to call the head end and remind them of restrictions if any or if none then no restrictions. Castle Gardens was one such point. You could avoid a lot of the RSP by doing this but the Massena spur is probably down to 25 to 30 mph for passenger and I think it is single track. I will have to check my CN ETT if I can find it. Time savings minimal, cost $$$$$, CN going for the idea laughable.