Commuter Subsidy

In some friendly discussion recently the issue of subsidy for general commuter fares on the Mid Town Direct Service. How much of the average ticket is state subsidized. Anym one hav e the informatilon. Thanks

I've not seen line by line specifics, but NJT has stated publically that it recovered an average of 43%. Hence, 57% subsidized. That was before the most recent fare increase I believe. The target for recovery is about 50% to my understanding and it may be there now.

I don't feel like looking it up right now, but I THINK the NJT annual report breaks the ratio down for each line....

Jtgshu wrote:I don't feel like looking it up right now, but I THINK the NJT annual report breaks the ratio down for each line....

That would be interesting info.

Jtgshu wrote:I don't feel like looking it up right now, but I THINK the NJT annual report breaks the ratio down for each line....

Didn't see it in the on-line report, but maybe I wasn't looking in the right place. I have heard that the NEC actually makes money for NJT based on operating costs (not taking into account equipment purchases like rolling stock, not sure about rent paid to AMtrak) and thus subsidizes the rest of the system, but don't know if that is true or not. JS

I don't remember where ive seen it, but i know ive seen it somewhere online - it might have been in the NJDOT reports/budget, i don't remember, im sorry

it basically broke down the budgets vs costs for each line

I know in the various reports on njt.com you can see the operating ratio of the company as a whole and rail and bus seperate. It always surprised me the ratio for rail being so much higher than bus. While neither "make money" over all, rail uses MUCH less subsidies than bus does, according to the numbers at least....

I think the state should subsidize bar cars. Why? Because I love booze.

Passaic River Rat wrote:I think the state should subsidize bar cars. Why? Because I love booze.

I second this motion. All in favor?

Passaic River Rat wrote:I think the state should subsidize bar cars. Why? Because I love booze.

Doubt they would need to subsidize that at all. Friday evening might even pay for the rest of the train.

pumpers wrote:

Jtgshu wrote:I don't feel like looking it up right now, but I THINK the NJT annual report breaks the ratio down for each line....

Didn't see it in the on-line report, but maybe I wasn't looking in the right place. I have heard that the NEC actually makes money for NJT based on operating costs (not taking into account equipment purchases like rolling stock, not sure about rent paid to AMtrak) and thus subsidizes the rest of the system, but don't know if that is true or not. JS

The NEC does actually cover operating expenses, but nowhere near enough to subsidize the rest of NJT.

cruiser939 wrote:

pumpers wrote:

Jtgshu wrote:I don't feel like looking it up right now, but I THINK the NJT annual report breaks the ratio down for each line....

Didn't see it in the on-line report, but maybe I wasn't looking in the right place. I have heard that the NEC actually makes money for NJT based on operating costs (not taking into account equipment purchases like rolling stock, not sure about rent paid to AMtrak) and thus subsidizes the rest of the system, but don't know if that is true or not. JS

The NEC does actually cover operating expenses, but nowhere near enough to subsidize the rest of NJT.

Interesting topic.

Is operational 'profitability' essentially based on load factor? Would seem so but not sure if there are other factors at play? (for example is their "rent" paid to Conrail for the RVL trains on the section from Cranford to NEC- does NJT pay "rent" top amtrak for NEC?)

If it's mostly the number of paying customers on the train then is there some magic number where you hit break even? 50% seats full for more than X stops. 100% full. 110% of seats. Etc? (assuming current fare structure)

michaelk wrote:

cruiser939 wrote:

pumpers wrote:Didn't see it in the on-line report, but maybe I wasn't looking in the right place. I have heard that the NEC actually makes money for NJT based on operating costs (not taking into account equipment purchases like rolling stock, not sure about rent paid to AMtrak) and thus subsidizes the rest of the system, but don't know if that is true or not. JS

The NEC does actually cover operating expenses, but nowhere near enough to subsidize the rest of NJT.

Interesting topic.

Is operational 'profitability' essentially based on load factor? Would seem so but not sure if there are other factors at play? (for example is their "rent" paid to Conrail for the RVL trains on the section from Cranford to NEC- does NJT pay "rent" top amtrak for NEC?)

If it's mostly the number of paying customers on the train then is there some magic number where you hit break even? 50% seats full for more than X stops. 100% full. 110% of seats. Etc? (assuming current fare structure)

Operational cost includes all fixed and variable costs that pertain to the actual movement of the train along it's scheduled route. Which means that paying Amtrak for trackage rights or electric traction power is included but thinks like maintenance on equipment or yard work associated with it or not. Load factor is the easiest way to determine profitability but it's not a straight-line equation.

Excuse my ignorance but how do trackage rights work? Is there some regulatory authority that sets pricing or is it all negotiated? Is it like 'x cars went y miles @ z rate per car mile'. Or is it 'you owe us a million a month'?

For electricity- I assume there's not meters in each locomotive so there's some formula like x car train times y miles thing going on?

michaelk wrote:Excuse my ignorance but how do trackage rights work? Is there some regulatory authority that sets pricing or is it all negotiated? Is it like 'x cars went y miles @ z rate per car mile'. Or is it 'you owe us a million a month'?

For electricity- I assume there's not meters in each locomotive so there's some formula like x car train times y miles thing going on?

I can't go into specifics but yes, it's a formulaic method based on the quantity of trains. Trackage rights are what one railroad pays to a host railroad for the ability to use their tracks (property). Amtrak owns the NEC in NJ and therefore NJT pays them to use their tracks.

About how much is NJT's electric bill to amtrak?