South African Steam

I was wondering if anyone from that area could discuss operations of things like teh garretts and/or the class 25 condensers and the Class 26 experimental.

These are all types of units that aren't available in America, where the main choice is saturated or superheated.

This topic is too broad! it deserves to be split into several more specific ones, and might generate more comment if it was...

I nominate: the class 25 condensers, for now.

Condensing steam locomotives seem like a good idea in principle, so why weren't they adopted more widely?
One PARTIAL explanation (maybe right, maybe wrong: anybody who knows more than I do is invited to weigh in!) is suggested by looking at a Class 25: the tender, with the condensing equipment, is HUGE. And that's to condense the exhaust steam for what, by North American standards, is a fairly small locomotive. (A 25 looks very much like a New York Central "Niagara" 4-8-4... but it has 60 inch driving wheels and runs on 3'6" gauge track. I suspect it's somewhat bigger than a 3/4 scale model of an NYCRR 6000 would be, but I think it was smaller than any American standard gauge 4-8-4.) So: what kind of tender would be needed to carry the condensing equipment for, say, an ATSF 2900?

The Russians, between the 1920s an the WW II period, made extensive experiments with condensing steam locomotives, particularly for use on lines where water was hard to come by. (Some of these lines also attracted their early main-line diesel locomotives, in the same time period.) When working right, operated by engineers who knew how to use them, the condensing steamers were significantly more efficient than non-condensing. Much of the time, however, they were operated in non-condensing mode, or were out of service leaving the trains to be hauled by non-condensing locomotives: over all, the Soviet railways don't seem to have benefited from their theoretical efficiency, and the condensing program was abandoned well before the end of steam. (Soviet Union built main-line steam well into the 1950s, but I think very few condensers after WW II.) ... Part of the problem, I think, was that condensing steam was maintenance intensive: condensers were retired (or converted to non-condensing configuration) in part, I suspect, for the reasons that the PRR's duplexes were: great when working, too hard to keep working.

So there is my-- largely speculative-- two cents (or less) worth. I hope the discussion takes off: I'd love to learn more about how American and "un-American" steam locomotives compare, especially since there are a bunch of (what seem like) good technological ideas (condensing, Garratt-style articulation, Giesl ejectors...) that were used extensively in other countries but never or harly tried in North America.

Further to my comments about the size of the 25:
http://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/25NC.htm
gives details on a 25 (non-condensing version, but shouldn't change the size too much) now preserved in England (they were built in Britain, and an English railway museum re-imported one when they were retired): locomotive weight seems to be ca. 258,000 pounds. This is smaller than a light USRA mikado: the smallest North American 4-8-4 were for TP&W, Temiskaming & North(ern) Ontario, and N de M: I think all were over 300,000 pounds.

Allen, my questions were more directed at those that had footboard experience.

While my knowledge of running steam is limited to the 90ton 2-8-0 of the Arcade & Attica (knowledge, albeit no experience) I've read extensively on the subject regarding PRR, C&O, N&W and NYC engines. But one thing I don't know about is foreign steam.

J Gallaway--
O.K. I trust you've noticed, on the emptying ashpans thread, that we currently have an actual South African fireman contributing to the forum! "John the Frireman" apparently hasn't fired the exotics (Garrats, condensing steam) you mention, but maybe he can tell us other interesting things.
Be well.

A very broad topic indeed! But if jgallaway81 is looking for bits of practical information, I can supply snippets and maybe add more if there are specific questions.

I have fired a GMAM Garratt, as there is one in preservation which belongs to Sandstone Heritage Trust. It was operated by Rovos Rail a couple of years back (when I fired it a few times) and is now in the care of Reefsteamers.

There are no class 25 condensers operating, so I've never had the chance to fire one. They were built to serve the drier parts of the country. I understand they were difficult to maintain, as ashes and cinders would get into the bearings of the cooling fans. Those who have heard them in action say they made a very distinctive noise. I think there is still one in existence, but not in operating condition.

There are several class 25NC (non-condenser) in preservation. I've fired a couple which belong to Rovos Rail. They have one which was originally converted to oil-burning, and then to diesel-burning. The latter was very unpopular with the crews and didn't steam well at all.

The big locos like GMAM and 25NC have mechanical stokers. Both also have self-starting injectors - ie you just open the water valve and pull open the steam valve, with no need to then trim the water valve as on most other South African locos. The GMAM has steam-operated cylinder cocks.

My own personal favourite of the bigger locos is the 15F 4-8-2. It's a little smaller than a 25NC, but nevertheless a powerful express passenger locomotive. I have fired three examples of this class quite often. Once again they have mechanical stokers, and the trick is to get the steam jets set right so you don't end up with a big heap of unburnt coal in the wrong place. When you have to fire by hand (ie in the depot, or when the stoker fails) it's very difficult, as the firehole is at the wrong height, the stoker mechanism gets in the way of your feet, and the firehole door gets in the way of your shovel, although you can just shovel coal onto the table plate and let the steam jets take it to where it needs to go. One of the 15Fs I've fired has a steam-driven grate shaker, but on the other two you have to shake the grates by hand, which gives you more control over which part of the fire you want to shake but is very hard work, especially when dropping the fire at the end of a long hard weekend.

Must stop now and go to work (which unfortunately does not involve steam locos!). I don't know if that's the sort of stuff you're looking for, jgallaway8? And I don't want to seem as if I'm advertising, but we have a lot of pictures and other info on the Friends of the Rail website. We also have a section called Train Tales which includes footplate tales by old firemen who used to fire during the days when steam was king.

Marine steam engines run on a condensing cycle, but they have the advantage of a water-cooled condenser. I shudder at the thought of the size of an air-cooled condenser for any medium to large steam locomotive. The idea of a condensing engine is attractive from two standpoints: one is the saving of water, the other is the improved thermodynamic efficiency because the spent steam exhausts into a vacuum instead of atmospheric pressure. But I think the efficiency advantage would be eaten up by the extra power needed to haul the condensing equipment and run the fans. Oi, the FANS!

John, those are the exact sorts of things I was talling about.

I'm a former employee of the Arcade & Attica in NYS which runs steam, so I have some first had knowledge of a smaller, saturated 2-8-0, which lends into the larger units here in the US. I also have some time volunteering with the Middletown & Hummelstown just outside Harrisburg, PA.

I too must head off to work, which also doesn't include steam, but does include "dropping" a 7,000+ ton train down the grades of Horseshoe Curve into Altoona, PA.

-Jason (J.D.)

I've just remembered that there's another post in this forum which refers to Garrats - Why No Garratts in North America?

Latest news from South Africa, is that the Outeniqua Choo-Tjoe - one of the last few operational steam trains in South Africa
will run for another 3 months until a viable business solution can be attained,as Transnet are selling off or rather ridding themselves
of all non profit and non core business divisions. Running costs $80k per month.

The train use to run between George and Knysna but due to floods years ago the line was washed away in sections and the repair
cost is $13million for that bill, Spoornet does have insurance for that but it seems like it is not in their business interests to use.

If you look on one of the views or in the Photo Gallery of the Kaaimans webcam on my site you can see the decay of the railway line across the famous Kaaimans curved railway bridge built in 1928.
The Herald Newspaper

THE Outeniqua Choo-Tjoe was thrown a lifeline yesterday – but only for three months while plans are considered to save the popular tourist attraction.

Western Cape Finance, Economic Development and Tourism MEC Garth Strachan assured staff yesterday that the steam train would be kept running until the end of June.

The Transnet Heritage Museum in George, which operates the iconic steam engine, was threatened with closure at the end of this month until Strachan stepped in. He initiated high-level talks to keep operations going for three more months while a committee tasked with finding ways to save the Choo- Tjoe completed its report.

Earlier this week, staff morale was at an all-time low.

However, Nichol Marais, the owner of a scenic rail experience in motorised rail cars from the museum, said yesterday it wasn‘t only the staff, but that the whole tourism industry was disappointed with the slow progress being made in deciding the Choo-Tjoe‘s fate.

Strachan said the uncertainty was regrettable and he sympathised with the workers. His department was doing everything possible to save the Choo-Tjoe.

“At the moment, the George to Mossel Bay train costs R800000 a month to run, this is not a small amount and that is why we got a private company in to assess the (various) recommendations,” he said, referring to recommendations by a steering committee looking at ways of saving the Choo-Tjoe.

The train used to run between Knysna and George but the route was changed to George–Mossel Bay after the rail line was damaged near Wilderness in the 2006-07 floods.

Strachan said with the economic recession, government did not want to cause job losses.

“The report is on my table and, in due course, we will make a decision which will be in the best interests of tourism and the Southern Cape.”

One proposal is for a shorter run between Knysna and Wilderness, as it is too costly at present to repair the three flood-damaged rail bridges between Wilderness and George.