Self defense and the RR

One day while working in the Stores Department, we heard a ruckus out at the nearby crossing. The trains fouled the crossing on a regular basis since it was right at the yard; they couldn't help it. That day
there was a truck driver out there just raising H E Double Hockey Sticks--I mean, he was cussing at the top of his lungs and daring that blankety-blank son of perdition (*&^%$#@ $ so 'n so in that caboose to come out there so he could "whup" his (censored). He was screaming and blowing his air horn, and we were..........like, what in the heck is this guy ON? Finally there was a HUGE shadow appeared in the door and then out onto the porch of the caboose. This conductor was a GIANT of a man, well over 6 feet
and nearly 300 lbs! Suddenly, it got quiet-----VERY quiet, and the conductor said,

" YOU were SAYING, Bub?"

Not another word!!!!!!!

Gadfly

Gadfly wrote:One day while working in the Stores Department, we heard a ruckus out at the nearby crossing. The trains fouled the crossing on a regular basis since it was right at the yard; they couldn't help it. That day
there was a truck driver out there just raising H E Double Hockey Sticks--I mean, he was cussing at the top of his lungs and daring that blankety-blank son of perdition (*&^%$#@ $ so 'n so in that caboose to come out there so he could "whup" his (censored). He was screaming and blowing his air horn, and we were..........like, what in the heck is this guy ON? Finally there was a HUGE shadow appeared in the door and then out onto the porch of the caboose. This conductor was a GIANT of a man, well over 6 feet
and nearly 300 lbs! Suddenly, it got quiet-----VERY quiet, and the conductor said,

" YOU were SAYING, Bub?"

Not another word!!!!!!!

Gadfly

Yes, that works great some of the time and in old John Wayne Movies. The problem is nowadays, a lot of crazies have a gun that they just can't wait to use on somebody to get a rep with their moronic peers. They want to shoot and kill you.
Stay in the caboose, call the nearest police, request permission and make an emergency movement to get away, arm yourself, if necessary, with an everyday item on board, of which there are many...but don't go outside. For the few seconds of an adrenelin rush, you may throw your life away for an ignorant half-wit who will then be granted respected "killer" status in prison among the other reprobates.

When i first read the thread header , i thought it meant self defence as in a martial art . not "packing a piece " . I guess we live in a different world . ( guns are illegal here , though armed offences still happen ) .
I took up karate 2 years ago , and it is good to have some knowledge of how to defend yourself . its not going to help against a gun ( unless close quarters ) but the main thing it does is boost your confidence to deal with agressive people .we are taught not to fight unless attacked , but the feeling that you can do at least something to defend yourself often means the confidence you exude makes them think twice about attacking you .

Times have changed. What made it funny was this guy that was doing the blustering was an itty bitty little guy about 160 lbs soaking wet. In the absence of a dangerous weapon, that conductor could have jacked that little pipsqueak's (censored) up around his shoulder blades!!!! And the small fry wasn't STOOPID enough to make like a laundry and "press" the issue!!!! LOL! It was really funny to watch (and see) how quiet things got after that!!!!

Gadfly

seems to me that little dogs bark the loudest.

I have never worked on a railroad but for may summers worked part time as a security guard, night shift, in several industries in Penna. right along side of railroads, one that was actually adjacent to a Reading RR tower. On some of the jobs we were armed, some not depending on the industry that hired the guards. On those jobs where we were unarmed I carried a 12 guage in my car trunk. It was legal then, and still may be, in Penna.to carry an unloaded firearm in one's vehicle. No, I never used it but considering what i witnessed and heard going on nearby in the wee hours of the Am, there were a lot of things going "bump in the night" I felt a lot safer knowing that if I had to defend my life, not the plant or its loading dock, I could. Yes. I probably would have been fired by the security firm but I would prefer to keep my life rather than my job. One last point. During the recent assault on the hotels in Mumbai the attackers killed several security guards at one of them as they entered. The other guards fled without resisting. Why did the guards do such a poor job of protecting the guests ? As the surving guards pointed out they were unarmed as it is too difficult to get permits to carry in India. The higher ups in suits who make the regulations are not in dangerous areas at 3:00 AM. Maybe if they were there would be different regulations. As for firearms being dangerous to rail workers my father in law worked for many years in a railway postal car sorting mail. All of the postal workers were armed and somehow no one seemed to have gotten themselves or some other railway workers accidentally shot. It is regretable but there are times when it may be necessary to defend one's life, or co-workers' lives, with lethal force.

Hi kevikens !
I read your post and have a few thoughts about it.
I understand the tenuous position of hired to be a security guard without a weapon to defend yourself. I also would have felt extremely uneasy in that position, and like you, probably would have addressed it in some way.
The only problem with the shotgun in the trunk idea is that, more than likely, should an incident have arisen in which you needed to defend yourself, in all liklihood that weapon might as well have been in Tuscaloosa as it was in the trunk. A far more likely scenario is that by theft, that that shotgun might have been stolen, entering the black market, and soon appearing in front of a storeowner's (or your) face.
I don't have any easy suggestion, as I have seen many a deceased in my career victimized by guns. I recall a security guard shot and killed (for the thrill of it, not because he had intervened during criminal activity) at the old Columbia Point Housing Project Dump who had been unarmed. With all due respect, a terrible waste of life for a minimum wage job. Do I wish that he had had a firearm to cap the freak who was about to kill him ? Yes. But I also know that it has been shown, time and time again, that firearms in the hands of civilians far more often kill innocent people than they kill violent assailant's. That's the problem.

In addition to the various "tools" a train crew has access to in order to legally protect themselves, my personal favorite is...

A burning fusee.

In my experience, hostile people don't seem to back down when you're clearly carrying a hammer or brake hose. But, when you light up a fusee and start walking towards them shouting "...What was that? I can't hear you. Come over here...", even the biggest, baddest, boys-on-the-block seem to consider how it would feel to be burned by a 10 minute fusee ... and turn around and walk away.

Most (if not all) deadly force/self defense laws REQUIRE retreat before armed confrontation.

In my humble opinion, there's no point displaying a fire arm (as a scare tactic) unless you intend to use it.

SooLineRob wrote:In addition to the various "tools" a train crew has access to in order to legally protect themselves, my personal favorite is...

A burning fusee.

In my experience, hostile people don't seem to back down when you're clearly carrying a hammer or brake hose. But, when you light up a fusee and start walking towards them shouting "...What was that? I can't hear you. Come over here...", even the biggest, baddest, boys-on-the-block seem to consider how it would feel to be burned by a 10 minute fusee ... and turn around and walk away.

Most (if not all) deadly force/self defense laws REQUIRE retreat before armed confrontation.

In my humble opinion, there's no point displaying a fire arm (as a scare tactic) unless you intend to use it.

This advice works great- unless you don't like the prospect of doing hard time for five years in the State Prison for Assault by means of a Dangerous Weapon, which is what this would amount to in Massachusetts should the other guy be unarmed. Also, the line regarding retreating is not necessarily true.

Actually, legally armed civilians rarely shoot the wrong guy; actual events are rare enough to become a 'man bites dog' kind of thing. In any given year, law abiding citizens often shoot and kill more BGs (in justifiable homicides) than the cops.
Now, all that said, the biggest advantage to a concealed gun is the ability of its user to make a threat go away without firing a shot; it happens somewhere between 1 and 3 million times in a given year; depends on whose numbers you like.
My former brother in law's wife's father was a NYC motorman. He was mugged on the way home from work and badly beaten; thereafter he packed a thoroughly illegal handgun (mere mortals can't get a carry permit in NYC) for the rest of his life.
The goblins that jump on trains or otherwise confront traincrew feel pretty secure in knowing their prey ain't packing.
Malley

SooLineRob wrote:In my humble opinion, there's no point displaying a fire arm (as a scare tactic) unless you intend to use it.

I know of no one who would disagree with you. Not just your opinion, it's settled fact.

Malley wrote:Now, all that said, the biggest advantage to a concealed gun is the ability of its user to make a threat go away without firing a shot;

No, the biggest advantage is the uncertainty it introduces into the predator's life. They don't know who can fight back, and who can't. Predators can't take risks. If they suffer injury, they have no support system to take care of them while they mend. If even a small part of their potential victims have the ability to fight back, the predator will move on to a different pool of victims.

The public policy advantage of mixing sheepdogs in with the sheep (allowing concealed weapons) is that the sheep are protected. Even those who are unwilling or unable to use violence are protected. THAT is why systemically disarming railroad employees is bad policy.

3rdrail wrote:
This advice works great- unless you don't like the prospect of doing hard time for five years...

Paul and everyone,

My "advice" was just that; suggesting another suitable personal defense measure for train crews that find themselves in a bad situation where their aggressor is hostile and displaying a weapon and you have reason to believe you're in immediate danger of injury or death. I'm not suggesting train crews start lighting fusees and attacking unarmed civilians that approach them...

And yes, I have been in situations where hostile people have approached me and lighting the fusee has deterred them from escalating their intentions.

Besides, I'm much happier scaring them off than getting into a confrontation with them. The paperwork, interviews, investigations, lawsuits, and everything else the railroad alone would put me through would be worse than a stab wound!

Seriously, a fusee is just another item one can use if need be ... and alot easier to handle than a brake hose/pry bar/etc..

Mr.Malley fails to note, that carrying weapons of any kind on railroad, is a rules violation.
You can have a carry permit , it is however never valid for use on railroad.
You use a gun , even for self defence would be a guaranteed dismissal, as it opens the railroad to lawsuits.

So for crew members te only weapons, are items used in daily use on railroad, which can not be construed as pre-meditated use of a weapon.

Ja, well, disarming railroad employees because the railroad might get sued is bad public policy. I understand why the railroad has these rules, but it doesn't make railroad employees safer.