N.J. senators, Amtrak to announce new Hudson tunnel project

Since this is Amtrak's project and not NJT's project, it may be able to get more political support. Since some Congresscritters and their staffers use the NYC-DC line, they may be willing to vote for something that will improve their ride.

The downside is that politicians from less-dense districts will not see much value in that, and ridicule it as pork barrel.

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:Suburban station, as an engineer for amtrak, I have heard of no talks to run more trains then they already have. If they want to carry more people surely they can add cars to the consist they are running.

While Amtrak probably doesn't have a plan to start running 20 more trains into Penn Station the day after tomorrow, this is a big-time infrastructure project that could last a century or more. I'm sure part of the equation is to have the capability to add more trains at some point in the future when it becomes necessary (i.e. if we see $8/gal gasoline).

Geez, with the Clockers already Suburban huh?

IIRC, NJT paid Amtrak the difference inbetween the NJT weekly or monthly pass cost compared to the Amtrak monthly pass fare for each and every passenger that rode that train. So basically Amtrak got the same amount of cash if all those NJT passengers were paying for an Amtrak monthly. I seriously doubt they were a drain on the bottom line I don't see how 8-10 plus Amfleets packed to the brim with basically each passenger paying the price of an Amtrak monthly would be a bad thing? The biggest controversy was what was going to happen with the crews that ran the Clockers. There were pretty serious things going around about those crews coming to NJT as well, and there were concerns about dovetailing them in to the NJT roster and qualifications, etc. Remember, at the time Amtrak was having problems making payroll each week, so cash in hand was very nice, and the Clockers gave them a lot of cash in hand. Maybe long term it cost them cash, but they couldn't afford to have a long term view then when you couldn't make payroll......

On top of that, NJT did pay Amtrak for the slots when they took over the Clockers.

and on top of THAT, Amtrak "leased" from NJT 5 or 6 at the time Brand New ALP46s, which allowed them to retire the E60s. These '46s (I think it was the 4624-4628, but basically it was 5 or 6 locos of whatever numbers) were bought by NJT specifically to be leased by Amtrak for the Clockers. So Amtrak was able to retire the E60s without having to buy a new locos, and got to lease them instead until the Clockers were transferred to NJT.

So no one was "manhandled". NJT didn't "pull the wool" over anyone's eyes. Mr. Warrington left Amtrak to go to NJT in 2002. What makes you think that he would be able to get everything he wanted from Amtrak, after he just left them? And it wasn't just him that left, it was a bunch of Amtrak upper management that came to NJT. You honestly think that Amtrak was like a dopey dog going uhhhh okayyyyyy surrree while NJT was a kniving fox taking what they wanted from Amtrak? HAHAHHAHAAH Im picturing a Warner Brothers cartoon right now in my head. They were PO'ed and very defensive of not just NJT but everyone. You would be too if you didn't know what the next week and the future held for you.

I don't care what "official" reasons were given for various things - there was a LOT of internal political tension going on inbetween Amtrak and NJT, mostly coming from Amtrak loosing so many managers to NJT in the 2002 timeframe, when Amtrak was on the brink. NJT people weren't happy because all these Amtrak people came over and basically took over the railroad and pushed aside NJT management. It was not a happy time and I personally believe that some of these tensions is what ended up dooming the tunnel and Amtrak not being a helpful partner with NJT.

And something I just remembered, I remember either hearing or seeing something with regard to what would happen if Amtrak were to go away - as I mentioend in my above post, the NEC dispatching would be split up. I mentioned that NJT would get sunnyside, I THINK that was the plan, but I believe LIRR would dispatch NYP (as they already dispatch half the year anyway). That would be another reason to have another, separate station with "NJT power and control" - not like a kid in a sandbox pouting - "mine mine mine" like Jersey Mike and Suburban station are implying.

Yes, ARC was flawed, but it didn't have to be. At one point in time, it was at the exact same stage as this proposal is today. It took a loooooong time and a lot of varous actions and mistakes to get to the point where it was cancelled and a station hundreds of feet underground on 34th st. This proposal has the potential to have the exact same end result as ARC. It all depends on politics, both internal and political politics (that don't make sense, but you know what I mean)

This is not yet another Amtrak vs. NJT post. This is just a personal view of things from that time frame when ARC was getting off the ground. And anyone who believes actually what is published and told to the public (with regard to really anything) is kidding themselves as to what reality is. Could I be totally wrong? of course. Do I know everything? No, of course not, I wasn't privy to that kind of info, but I do have some and have seen some very interesting info.... However, Im very good at putting things together and have a very good memory. I don't forget "the bad old days" - I dont' look through the past with rose colored glasses.

Hopefully some of the many mistakes made by ALL parties with regard to the disaster that became ARC are NOT made again. But im not real hopeful.

As I said on the thread in the NJT forum, I got about 30 years left......I hope something will be done by then. But im not holding my breath.

Sorry to such a downer, but we have been down this (rail)road before. I wish RR.net from around that time frame wasn't lost, there were some great threads about Amtrak and its possible fate in that RR.net (version 2.5 maybe it would have been? hahah)

I find it completely amazing that a project of this magnitude has been developed between the time ARC was cancelled and today. Nothing, Nothing, gets developed that quickly. This had to have been in the planning process for months if not years. So my question is why was ARC such a political hot potatoe when this plan, which appears to be far superior to the ARC implementation was almost ready to be announced? Were they going to announce this while ARC was in construction? This is what ARC should have been all along. The only missing item is direct heavy rail connections to GCT which appears to be addressed with the 7 train. Now if the funding is there, get moving.

Jtgshu wrote:As I said on the Sorry to such a downer, but we have been down this (rail)road before. I wish RR.net from around that time frame wasn't lost, there were some great threads about Amtrak and its possible fate in that RR.net (version 2.5 maybe it would have been? hahah)

Mr. Jtgshu, www.archives.org can possibly help; here is a representative topic (one of mine) that is still available there. "Fish around"and you may (or may not) "get lucky".

http://web.archive.org/web/200109051956 ... 20718.html

Thank you Mr. Norman, for that link - I love the wayback machine!!! It has caused me to waste many many hours looking at old internet pages, including RR.net! It always seems when I find a link that I like, it never is complete. Especially since RR.net went to muliple pages on a single thread instead of all the posts on one page, but its a great resource and some great info can be found!

lpetrich wrote: Since this is Amtrak's project and not NJT's project, it may be able to get more political support. Since some Congresscritters and their staffers use the NYC-DC line, they may be willing to vote for something that will improve their ride.

The downside is that politicians from less-dense districts will not see much value in that, and ridicule it as pork barrel.

of course, this is exactly the kind of project some republicans say they should be funding (build it in the northeast). the beauty of the plan is that it isn't a line to the basement, a tunnel to nowhere. the only real questionable aspect is cost, the functional part is good. conencts to existing station, provides extra capacity for more commuter and intercity rail, etc.

JTGshu wrote:
IIRC, NJT paid Amtrak the difference inbetween the NJT weekly or monthly pass cost compared to the Amtrak monthly pass fare for each and every passenger that rode that train. So basically Amtrak got the same amount of cash if all those NJT passengers were paying for an Amtrak monthly. I seriously doubt they were a drain on the bottom line I don't see how 8-10 plus Amfleets packed to the brim with basically each passenger paying the price of an Amtrak monthly would be a bad thing?

Amtrak did indeed think they were a drain (whether they were or not is another story). If they didn't, they enver would have ended the service, period.

JTGshu wrote:
On top of that, NJT did pay Amtrak for the slots when they took over the Clockers.

nope, unless you provide hard data, this goes against everything I've heard from people that would actually know.

JTGshu wrote:
So no one was "manhandled". NJT didn't "pull the wool" over anyone's eyes. Mr. Warrington left Amtrak to go to NJT in 2002. What makes you think that he would be able to get everything he wanted from Amtrak, after he just left them? And it wasn't just him that left, it was a bunch of Amtrak upper management that came to NJT.

seems fairly obvious, freinds of amtrak's management were running njt...and amtrak management likely viewed njt as a possible landing place.

JTGshu wrote:
I don't care what "official" reasons were given for various things - there was a LOT of internal political tension going on inbetween Amtrak and NJT, mostly coming from Amtrak loosing so many managers to NJT in the 2002 timeframe, when Amtrak was on the brink. NJT people weren't happy because all these Amtrak people came over and basically took over the railroad and pushed aside NJT management. It was not a happy time and I personally believe that some of these tensions is what ended up dooming the tunnel and Amtrak not being a helpful partner with NJT.

NJT wasn't a helfpul partner either. it was a two way street of course, warrington likely wasn't fond of being ousted after his dreadful mismanagement of Amtrak (though it's fitting that nj would hire someone whose background was bankrupting the intercity passenger rail system with cockamimie schemes).

JTGshu wrote:
Hopefully some of the many mistakes made by ALL parties with regard to the disaster that became ARC are NOT made again. But im not real hopeful.

me neither, particularly until some of the bad old management at 60 mass retires.

Here's a question I've not seen addressed anywhere, but which I think could be immensely important long-term:

Given that this new plan ties into Penn Station, and at least partially provides through-tracks, are its tubes sized sufficiently as to allow Superliners or other standard bilevlels to fit through them?

If so, then this would offer potentially massive new operating flexibility to Amtrak, in a way that's non-obvious but could make a vast difference over time.

krtaylor wrote:Here's a question I've not seen addressed anywhere, but which I think could be immensely important long-term:

Given that this new plan ties into Penn Station, and at least partially provides through-tracks, are its tubes sized sufficiently as to allow Superliners or other standard bilevlels to fit through them?

If so, then this would offer potentially massive new operating flexibility to Amtrak, in a way that's non-obvious but could make a vast difference over time.

Even if the tunnels were large enough for Superliners, I think the bigger question is will there be enough clearance in Penn Station itself. It obviously can't right now, and who knows if it would be even practical to create enough clearance on the new tracks. Now even if they were able to do all of that, would they want to? Amtrak doesn't seem to be interested in running transcontinental trains at the moment(these would be the only type of trains that would use Superliners as other tunnels in NYP and Baltimore would prevent the north/south long distance trains that would use them from doing so), although I personally think it would be to much benefit if they did.

Although the Clockers are no more, I find it interesting that executives from Wilmington to NYP and even Lancaster to NYP buy the high priced Amtrak monthly pass for Amtrak Northeast Regional and Amtrak Keystone service. Recall the stillborn "Acela Commuter" that was to run from Philly to NYP? Somehow Amtrak foresaw a market that these executives were after - the amenities of comfortable riding Amtrak coach seats with at-seat plugs for their laptops etc. to get work done while travelling home at faster pace and more comfortable pace than what NJT or SEPTA could offer. Some of these same executives are still around - paying over double (and likely soon triple) the amount they did when the Clocker service ended.

In the morning, a.m. rush hour Northeast Regional Train #170 and Amtrak Keystone train #640 are often packed to the gills not only with regular Amtrak riders, but monthly pass riders as well. And again (for the a.m. and p.m. trains during rush hour), this is after 1) a major price increase 2) decrease frequencies and 3) decrease in some station stops. For example nearly all Keystone trains used to stop at Princeton Jct. Now hardly any do. Stops between Philly and Trenton are also limited by Amtrak. In the evening, I see the 5:39 p.m. out of NYP packed, with many in the cafe car spread out with their laptop and paperwork rushing to complete a day's work.

So there's still a market here. The Keystones, with their "all electric service" sort of filled in some of the voids the Clockers left behind. But there are still gaps, even in adding in the Northeast Regional trains.

I think if Amtrak put another Keystone or Northeast Regional in making a few more stops between Philly and NYP, there would be a lot more monthly passholders from riders gained at these various stations - especially the affluent Princeton Jct. area.

NJT is nice for some, but when you have that longer ride and the risk of a NJT turning into a local during service problems, let alone executives (and I use that term lightly in this post) making deals where their employer pays for their commute - Amtrak looks and becomes much more attractive. Working on a laptop on a NJT train is a little hard to do. And I am one that often has to continue the work day during my x.x hour commute.

Let me also say that with NJT price increases, the monthly pass is often half of a monthly pass that Amtrak may offer at certain stations. No doubt, executives in the Pacific Northwest Corridor on the Amtrak Cascade trains or California Corridor trains are paying a LOT less than Amtrak NEC riders!

Even the hourly Northeast Regionals in the p.m. going southbound from NYP skip key stations monthly passholders would use. And Amtrak, I guess for fun, throws in the Vermonter as its 7:05 p.m. Northeast Regional train for monthly pass holders. Gone is the 7:35 p.m. Northeast Regional. One often hopes the Vermonter is running on time! Otherwise it is the 6:30 p.m. Keystone or the 8:05 p.m. Northeast Regional train - long wait in between!

So I could definitely see Amtrak adding another "peak period" Keystone or Northeast Regional during the p.m. and a.m. hours to try and grab these monthly pass riders - if it was smart!

jp1822 wrote:As much as NJT would like to "get out" of Sunnyside Yard, I think they will still be having a presence there.

Who said that NJT wants to get out of SSY?

JamesRR wrote:I remember reading somewhere that Amtrak's idea for additional trackage was to go underneath the existing terminal. I don't know how feasible it is to go south without taking over and demolishing buildings.

Building new station tracks under the current station was one of the alternatives looked at under ARC. As for building the new station tracks to the south of the current station (refered to as the block 780 plan), it would definitely require cut and cover construction practices to be employed.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:But what is interesting is that all the underground obstructions such as existing Subways, water mains, telecommunication facilities, that were set forth as flaws with the Macy's station plan, have now suddenly become no longer such.

Those problems still exist. Amtrak didn't waive a magic wand to make them disappear nor did NJT just make up excuses for not connecting the tunnels to PSNY. The water main was an obstruction for extending towards GCT. Since this plan does not involve that, it no longer factors in. When NJT was designing the ARC tunnel, they were told by the ACOE (Army Corps of Engineers) that they could not go through the bulkhead built on the river's edge. Therefore, NJT had to drill below the bulkhead. The optimal approach to the PSNY then would have conflicted with the tunnels of the extended 7 line. In order to avoid all obstacles (and deal with different geological issues that were unexpected), the connecting tunnels would have had grade up to 3% which was way over the Amtrak imposed limit. Now that Amtrak is the one designing the tunnel, they for some reason feel as if the AOCE will magically grant them permission to drill through the bulkhead. I have no idea why they assume this but my colleagues and I find it highly unlikely that they'll receive the authority. If Amtrak can't, well... they can always amend there own guidelines in terms of grade.

orulz wrote:Penn Station South seems like an interesting alternative to the NJT Bat Cave. I'm no expert, though, but couldn't they increase the efficiency of Penn Station without adding more tracks by through-running commuter trains? I'd have to guess that "Penn Station South" with all trackwork, land acquisition, and construction it requires, probably accounts for a couple billion dollars of the total price tag. I bet you could free up an equivalent number of track slots at Penn Station by investing $2 billion in interoperability projects.

(1) NJT - MNR New Haven Line interoperability would require zero capital expense. They already do it - "The Train To The Game". Incorporating this into regular weekday schedules would require busting silos which is politically difficult, but NJT and MNR already cooperate on the lines west of the Hudson, so come on guys!
(2) NJT - LIRR would require "dual mode" locomotives that can run on both third rail and catenary. The technology to do this (and do it reliably!) already exists: see the Eurostar.
(3) LIRR - MNR Hudson/Harlem Line. Would require complete electrification of the West Side LIne, which is already proposed by MNR. MNR and LIRR Third rail are incompatible but is this really a show stopper? Worst case, retrofit all MNR territory and trains to work with LIRR style 3rd rail, or vice versa. Cost? Probably a lot less than building "Penn Station South".

NJT already through runs as many trains as they can and loops them in SSY. Additionally to your second point about joint NJT - LIRR service, why would it need a dual maode capable of operating on both AC and DC power? Wouldn't a Dual mode locomotive that is AC/diesel (i.e. the ALP-45DP) work just fine unless there are some restrictions about running diesels on long island that I'm not aware of?

innervisions wrote:However, the question remains: if this new Hudson tunnel option was always feasible, why NJT's insistence on the Macy's cavern in the original ARC plan?

Sorry for inundating you guys with posts. I'm just going through and responding to the posts in order and I pretty much answered this one 2 posts ago, see there.