Terminating NEC at Dulles

As others have pointed out, Dulles is far out of the way from the NEC. BWI is within 3 miles or so of the NEC. Reagan National is within a couple of miles (I've never tried to make the connection between the two but I don't think it would be too difficult).

The Metro (if completed) will be a good start, but I'm not sure exactly how practical it will be for most. Dulles is pretty far out. (from Washington Union Station by road it's 28.3 miles).

As for the WO&D, I believe most of the way it was single track and it's now a heavily used bike trail.

Cadet57 wrote:the Metro will be connecting to Dulles in about 4 years thus making it much easier to get to/from the airport from the city.

Phase 1 of the Silver Line which will terminate at Wiehle Avenue station in Reston - about 1/2 way to Dulles - is due to start service in late 2013. Phase 2, which is still in the design and engineering stage, which will extend the Sliver Line to a Dulles Airport station and 2 stations beyond that to Ashburn, is tentatively scheduled for 2016. So it will probably be 6 years before we have a Washington Metro connection all the way to Dulles Airport.

Responding to another post about express Metro service to Dulles, that would be desirable, but would require a 3 or 4 track line out to Dulles. And express service through the existing Orange line from East Falls Church to Rosslyn and under the Potomac would really require 2 additional tracks to provide an express service. Retrofitting that now on the underground Orange line would be hideously expensive. And four tracking the new Silver line through Tyson's Corner and out to Dulles would have driven up the cost enough to probably kill the project. So we won't have a high speed express service to Dulles. The DC Metro Silver Line will provide direct access to Dulles Airport from downtown DC and a one stop station change from WAS, it just won't be that fast a connection to the airport.

Tadman wrote:Why would Amtrak lead passengers to airlines? That's easy. It's called realism. Beyond the northeast, Amtrak carries about 1% of passengers on intercity travel. So if you're travelling outside NEC, for example from Wilmington to Nashville, you can take a puddlejumper to Dulles or Acela to Dulles.

It is worthwhile connecting major airports to intercity rail lines but only where the airport is reasonably accessible or close to the existing or proposed rail corridor. Dulles Airport isn't. If the NEC were to be extended to Dulles Airport - and I do not see how it would get from WAS - Alexandria to the Dulles connector road without a massive construction project or taking a very roundabout route, then where the NEC connections go from there? South on the Rt 28 to Manassas and then by new ROW to Richmond? Out I-66 to the Shenandoah valley?

No, the NEC will connect to the existing northern end of the RF&P line to Richmond. The best route to Richmond for a passenger only higher speed line from south of the AF interlocking to Richmond really needs to be looked at over just adding a 3rd track shared with freight on the winding RF&P line, but that is another thread. I think we should be looking at building a electrified high speed Southeast corridor from DC to Richmond to Raleigh to Charlotte and then to Atlanta. The SouthEast Corridor (SEC) from Atlanta connects to the NEC at Union Station in DC. Call the combined corridor the Eastern Corridor. An extremely expensive NEC extension to Dulles does not work for connecting anything to the southern end of the NEC.

Besides, the NEC already provides pretty good rail connections to a number of airports: Reagan National (via Washington Metro), BWI, Philadelphia international (SEPTA from 30th street station), Newark, and JFK (via LIRR and Airtrain). A connecting stop at T.F. Green Airport in Providence RI is likely at some point.

Getting Metro to go there is all there will ever be. Now that it is in the design and build stage that will be the end of any other thoughts.

I have taken the Metro to National for a flight to Minnesota for a fan trip tot he DMIR and it worked pretty good. The only down side is having luggage at rush-hour on a already full train. But If you get on and park the luggage near the door it is not to bad.

No current heavy rail track anywhere close.

T2

To me the big problem of TERMINATING the NEC at Dulles is just that - it would be terminus, and would thus be pulling connecting riders from only one direction. Beyond it, there really wouldn't be much of anywhere to go without generally backtracking, which would discorage through ridership from say Manassas and Charlottesville.

Using Tadman's example of a Wilmington to Nashville run, I'd think that a rider of this nature would more logically travel 20 minutes to Philly, and then get a Regional Rail train to PHL or simply ride an hour to BWI and pick up a flight on AirTran, as opposed to riding another 45 minutes to Dulles.

The nice thing about the current airport stations on the NEC (EWR and BWI) is that they're mid-route and can pull from both directions on Amtrak, as well as from both directions on overlaying commuter lines as well, providing enhanced frequency of service. Dulles as an NEC terminus would not enjoy the same, and may not even experience the frequency overlay of commuter service if VRE's current service levels are any indication. As such, the DC Metro Silver is probably the best solution, combined with express buses from interim points, similar to those for Boston Logan.

The Metropolitan wrote:To me the big problem of TERMINATING the NEC at Dulles is just that - it would be terminus, and would thus be pulling connecting riders from only one direction. Beyond it, there really wouldn't be much of anywhere to go without generally backtracking, which would discorage through ridership from say Manassas and Charlottesville.

Using Tadman's example of a Wilmington to Nashville run, I'd think that a rider of this nature would more logically travel 20 minutes to Philly, and then get a Regional Rail train to PHL or simply ride an hour to BWI and pick up a flight on AirTran, as opposed to riding another 45 minutes to Dulles.

The nice thing about the current airport stations on the NEC (EWR and BWI) is that they're mid-route and can pull from both directions on Amtrak, as well as from both directions on overlaying commuter lines as well, providing enhanced frequency of service. Dulles as an NEC terminus would not enjoy the same, and may not even experience the frequency overlay of commuter service if VRE's current service levels are any indication. As such, the DC Metro Silver is probably the best solution, combined with express buses from interim points, similar to those for Boston Logan.

Washington Union station is a giant terminus. There are only a few trains that go further South.

This idea is to send trains that would have otherwise terminated at union station through to a new Dulles terminus with a stop at national airport on the way. The entire line would be electrified and run on the old w&od ROW, therefore there would be no need for a time consuming engine switch at DC. If the segment to Richmond is eventually electrified then more trains could also travel there. But the real mistake I think is using Union Station as a terminal rather than Dulles.

Having a connecting rail option at Dulles could divert air passengers from commuter flights north and offer NEC passengers. More airport options.

If anything, such a line should be operated by VRE from Washington, not Amtrak. There aren't any major cities or even active rail lines to the northwest, unless Amtrak undertook to build a line all the way to Harpers Ferry, WV. With that, you're talking multi-billions that should be spent to serve other markets. At least if VRE were to serve the airport with a stub line line to Herndon along the old W&OD, you don't have to justify going any further out into the Washington suburbs to find a city.

With that said, I think the Metro is enough, especially since express buses will still ply that route. The W&OD is dead as a railroad, and with only 100' of right of way at maximum (probably since reduced) I highly doubt you'll be able to thread even a single-track line alongside a very popular trail and a power transmission corridor. Beyond that, you'd need to find room for a rail line in the I-66 corridor, which is also very narrow through Arlington, and engineer a connection to the Long Bridge near the Pentagon.

mtuandrew wrote:If anything, such a line should be operated by VRE from Washington, not Amtrak. There aren't any major cities or even active rail lines to the northwest, unless Amtrak undertook to build a line all the way to Harpers Ferry, WV. With that, you're talking multi-billions that should be spent to serve other markets. At least if VRE were to serve the airport with a stub line line to Herndon along the old W&OD, you don't have to justify going any further out into the Washington suburbs to find a city.

With that said, I think the Metro is enough, especially since express buses will still ply that route. The W&OD is dead as a railroad, and with only 100' of right of way at maximum (probably since reduced) I highly doubt you'll be able to thread even a single-track line alongside a very popular trail and a power transmission corridor. Beyond that, you'd need to find room for a rail line in the I-66 corridor, which is also very narrow through Arlington, and engineer a connection to the Long Bridge near the Pentagon.

The idea is for high speed intercity rail to connect to airports to make it easier for people to choose rail as an alternative to flying for short distances.

I'm intrigued by the possibility of serving both National and Dulles via this line and perhaps the W&OD could continue as a trail after Dulles but be all rail before with overhead wires for transmission as is common with many railroads.

I'm inspired by Geneva, a city a little smaller than DC. They extended the line from the rail station Cornivan to the Airport and terminate trains there.

There would be no reason why local commuter trains couldn't also use this line. Maybe it would make sense for them to be MARC instead of VRE and continue the NE corridor electric service. The formalities of paying for the service by Virginia would be easier than VRE getting electric equipment and the loss of the benefit of through service from Maryland.

FRN9 wrote:Washington Union station is a giant terminus. There are only a few trains that go further South.

This idea is to send trains that would have otherwise terminated at union station through to a new Dulles terminus with a stop at national airport on the way. The entire line would be electrified and run on the old w&od ROW, therefore there would be no need for a time consuming engine switch at DC. If the segment to Richmond is eventually electrified then more trains could also travel there. But the real mistake I think is using Union Station as a terminal rather than Dulles.

There are more than a few trains that go further south of WAS. Let's see for the LD and longer corridor trains: Crescent, Cardinal, Silver Star & Meteor, Palmetto, Carolinian. For the weekday NE Regionals, there are 2 to Newport News, one to Lynchburg, and, what 3 or 4, to Staples Mill Road? That is a fair number. If the SE HSR to Richmond to Raleigh to Charlotte NC is built as planned, even with it's limitations on the DC to Richmond section and non-electrified, but also combined with multiple daily trains to Norfolk, the SE H(er)SR will still result in considerable increase in daily trains and passenger traffic going south from DC. A end station at Dulles does not fit with these plans.

As for the W&OD ROW, how wide was that ROW even back in the heyday of the W&OD train? Much of it does not look that wide. it is a now a bike trail, and the ROW has likely been encroached on or narrowed with parking lots and the like at a number of places. It also goes right through the walkable areas in downtown Vienna (VA) and right smack through Falls Church and Herndon. Proposing to build a 2 track electrified heavy rail line through those communities would be a non-starter idea of the first order. I hope they do manage to keep the entire ROW intact, because at some point in the future, the ROW might be viable for use as a light rail / street car line running from Herndon to Vienna to Falls Church to Arlington. Single track it through the narrow parts in Vienna and other towns to lessen the footprint. Would make a nice complement to the Silver Line and other light rail & street car lines that may eventually be developed in the Northern Virginia area. But I do recognize that any plan to convert the W&OD from a bike & walking trail is not going to fly publicly any time soon.

Actually, I was mistaken - I-66 only follows the W&OD corridor for about half a mile. After that, the trail continues southeasterly, and intersects active rail at the south end of the former Potomac Yards just south of KDCA. Seeing that, I have to change my opinion, and say that it's a shame no one thought of this thirty years ago. I still think the W&OD trail corridor is impractical at best for any sort of heavy rail, and that Amtrak is completely unsuited for this corridor due to its prior commitment in going to Richmond. But, I also think that it would have been an excellent KIAD-KDCA-WAS corridor, had Dulles' designers thought to include a spur to Herndon in 1962 (six years before the W&OD's abandonment.) That train has long since left the station though, so all we're doing here is speculating about what might have been.

afiggatt wrote:

FRN9 wrote:Washington Union station is a giant terminus. There are only a few trains that go further South.

This idea is to send trains that would have otherwise terminated at union station through to a new Dulles terminus with a stop at national airport on the way. The entire line would be electrified and run on the old w&od ROW, therefore there would be no need for a time consuming engine switch at DC. If the segment to Richmond is eventually electrified then more trains could also travel there. But the real mistake I think is using Union Station as a terminal rather than Dulles.

There are more than a few trains that go further south of WAS. Let's see for the LD and longer corridor trains: Crescent, Cardinal, Silver Star & Meteor, Palmetto, Carolinian. For the weekday NE Regionals, there are 2 to Newport News, one to Lynchburg, and, what 3 or 4, to Staples Mill Road? That is a fair number. If the SE HSR to Richmond to Raleigh to Charlotte NC is built as planned, even with it's limitations on the DC to Richmond section and non-electrified, but also combined with multiple daily trains to Norfolk, the SE H(er)SR will still result in considerable increase in daily trains and passenger traffic going south from DC. A end station at Dulles does not fit with these plans.

As for the W&OD ROW, how wide was that ROW even back in the heyday of the W&OD train? Much of it does not look that wide. it is a now a bike trail, and the ROW has likely been encroached on or narrowed with parking lots and the like at a number of places. It also goes right through the walkable areas in downtown Vienna (VA) and right smack through Falls Church and Herndon. Proposing to build a 2 track electrified heavy rail line through those communities would be a non-starter idea of the first order. I hope they do manage to keep the entire ROW intact, because at some point in the future, the ROW might be viable for use as a light rail / street car line running from Herndon to Vienna to Falls Church to Arlington. Single track it through the narrow parts in Vienna and other towns to lessen the footprint. Would make a nice complement to the Silver Line and other light rail & street car lines that may eventually be developed in the Northern Virginia area. But I do recognize that any plan to convert the W&OD from a bike & walking trail is not going to fly publicly any time soon.

Hmmmm... Most trains I have taken south either terminate in Harrisburg or DC. I agree there are some that continue south, but even if the route to Richmond were electrified, I doubt all would be continuing on.

It really is a question of values and based on that I imagine those who are skeptical are right. A recent drive rough rural Virginia reveals more civil war battlefield monuments than I knew existed. There is a nostalgia there. Public transportation in the south has not been popular since blacks were allowed to sit in the front of the bus. It's a shame, but this is true. Hopefully, the rational side of people would win out as they would see that being on the NEC would mean jobs as companies would locate near train stations that could ferry workers north. But who knows. NIMBYs always seem to have the loudest voices.

Regan National is so close to downtown DC via the Yellow line, it's almost impossible to justify a train station even though it is a three track row.

What would be good for the NEC would be a much improved station at Alexandria. Right now, the Metro and railroad stations require walking along a side walk under the railroad. It would be nice to see a dedicated passage way to facilitate transferring.

The silver line should have been built with three tracks once it leaves the Orange line. Even if you can't run express the whole way, make all the stops in DC then run express once you get onto the silver line ROW.

I agree that IAD needs to be better connected to DC but I"m not sure how feasible it would be to have Amtrak do it.

gprimr1 wrote: I agree that IAD needs to be better connected to DC but I"m not sure how feasible it would be to have Amtrak do it.

Could fit into place with a high speed shuttle service between IAD and Union Station. In turn that would connect with an improved East Coast rail network where electrification can be strung between Union Station, Atlanta and Miami ( to offer high speed services for the southern tier of the East Coast ).

gprimr1 wrote:Regan National is so close to downtown DC via the Yellow line, it's almost impossible to justify a train station even though it is a three track row.

What would be good for the NEC would be a much improved station at Alexandria. Right now, the Metro and railroad stations require walking along a side walk under the railroad. It would be nice to see a dedicated passage way to facilitate transferring.

Actually there is a plan to build a direct passageway from the mezzanine area at the DC Metro station under the tracks to Alexandria Union Station with elevators to both platforms. Would make connections between Amtrak/VRE and the King Street Yellow & Blue Line DC Metro station pretty easy. Coming from the south on Amtrak - in 6 years or so - if someone wanted to go to Dulles Airport, get off at Alexandria stop, walk over to the Metro station, take the Blue line to Rosslyn and then the Silver Line out to Dulles Airport. No need for a multi-gigabuck NEC extension to Dulles with the $5.2 billion Silver Line extension providing a decent connection.

There is an application to fund the engineering study and final design at http://www.drpt.virginia.gov/projects/f ... Tunnel.pdf, but don't know if it has been funded. Page 3 of the pdf applications shows the floor plan of the tunnel connection.

I'm sorry, but the idea of extending Amtrak to Dulles is ludicrous. I've lived in Washington, DC on and off for 40 years. Where are you going to find room for a railroad in, for example, Arlington, which is a very, very densely settled place? Even the Dulles corridor is very built up now. The W&OD ROW makes a great bike path, but is neither wide enough, nor direct enough, to serve as a ROW for electrified high speed rail.

Much better to build a station opposite National Airport so Amtrak trains to and from Richmond can directly serve the airport.

An even better idea would be a rail extension (over ROW that exists and is intact) from Jamaica to JFK Airport in New York, and then operation of dedicated service that would start at JFK, call at Penn Station, stop at Newark Airport, then Philadelphia, the Philadelphia Airport (you'd need a south leg wye connection at "Phil", but there's plenty of room), then Baltimore, BWI, Washington, and Reagan National. Run hourly service and replace lots of commuter planes that now fly between those airports.

Dulles isn't convenient to much, and probably should never have been built. The Metro extension is a dumb idea as an airport connector, since running time will be much too long to be competitive. I predict most of its patrons will be people who live in Arlington or Falls Church and commute to Tysons Corner or to points along the Dulles Airport access road. You won't find many airline travelers on those trains.