What I imagine the T would look like in a couple decades...

Ha, yeah right! This is a real dream... This would require it's own trillion dollar bailout... However, should the MBTA find a trillion buried under Park Street...


Work in *progress*:



I'll start with changes:

1. Red Line
1a. Alewife extended west to Belmont (not sure whereabouts in said area though) along the... Fitchburg line(?).
1b. New branch from Davis to Arlington center, maybe Lexington, under the Minuteman Bikeway. (Arlington-Braintree)
1c. The "indigo" commuter rail line is completely disbanded and is linked in between Broadway and Andrew Square. (Belmont-Readville)
1d. Removal of the Ashmont branch. Well... Yes. Perhaps extend the high-speed line to Savin Hill so Dorchester isn't left in the dark, while at the same time, preventing 3 different lines from crowding up the stretch from Davis to Broadway.

2. Orange Line
2a. Extend the Orange Line to Reading/RT-128.
2b. Assembly Square station between Wellington and Sullivan, of course.
2c. Extend the Orange Line to West Roxbury along the... Worcester commuter rail line (? ...I'm really bad with my commuter rail lines...) and then curve south along/under an abandoned ROW to Deadham.

3. Green Line
3a. Most important in this entire map... Add more dots to the B-line on the map so it looks a bit more like reality.
3b. Eliminate D Line to make way for Silver Line.
3c. Eliminate E line to make way for Silver Line.
3d. A new D Line, Dudley Square, via the abandoned Washington Street tunnel south of Boylston. Personally debating whether it should surface before Dudley. Could prove to be a traffic nightmare if it does.
3e. Extend north to Somerville's Union Square.

4. Blue Line
4a. Extend north to Swampscott at minimum, probably Salem.
4b. Extend west from Bowdoin all the way to Kendall, then southwest under a ROW, across the Charles' rail bridge at BU, connect with green line for a BU stop, follow the Pike a bit, back underground for the remainder under Charles again to Arsenal Mall, Watertown, Waltham.

5. Silver Line (a REAL one, no BRT here, and no light rail. Heavy rail)
5a. Starting at the former D-Riverside line up to Brookline Hills.
5b. Then jumps to cover the E-Line just a bit north of Heath. (underground here, obviously)
5c. Tunnel under Stuart Street just short of Copley (pedestrian concourse links up Copley, Silver Line, and Back Bay) and then proceed to New England Med where the Silver, Orange, and Green Lines would once again link up. It will then make it's way to South Station, Aquarium, and North Station (North-South rail-link, huzzah!). And for the third time, the Silver, Orange, and Green Lines will link up, via North Station... hmm, didn't notice that till now, interesting.
5d. From North Station, the Silver Line would make it's way to the current proposed Green Line to Medford extension, going as far as Woburn/Winchester.
5e. In Newton, a westward branch goes south to Needham. This, combined with Orange Line coverage of West Roxbury will eliminate the Needham commuter rail line.

6. Ped Tunnels
6a. Linking Government Center and State Street should be possible, call it... The Cornhill Concourse for the little-known Cornhill St above it's projected location.
6b. Linking State Street and Downtown Crossing. This is a must, IMO. If anything has to be done here, it is this. It's the cheapest possible Red-Blue connector and will provide substantial coverage of downtown via underground ped tunnels. Being able to walk from the commons to DTX to State's north portal would be amazing in bad weather. I'd pay $2 just for that walk some times.
6c. Symphony to Mass Ave. Seems reasonable... meh.
6d. Copley-SilverLine-BackBay as mentioned before. 3 stations in relatively close proximity. Mass Pike is an obvious problem and may require stairs between the Silver Line and Back Bay portion...
6e. Arlington-Silver Line. It would be pretty close, so hey... why not, let's just link everything we can, haha.
6f. Not shown... State to Aquarium. Aquarium would also be serving as a "Central Station" by the way?
6g. No, that's enough. Oh, wait- BU! Green line to Blue line!


I believe that's everything, without too much detail too soon as I have had a long day and I'm just putting this out there to see what initial perception is.

So, how's this for a first post? Hello, everyone. Like my dream world?

I like it, but some of the map image got sliced and diced, at least on my computer.

Very much a work in progress.

Have you viewed http://futurembta.com/

Much of what're proposing is covered on there with very good and detailed maps.

Pictures are worth a thousand words so here is my counter proposal, also not complete. Similar to the future MBTA maps as well as yours.



Green Line: Converted to heavy rail running blue line cars. Branches as follows:
1: Watertown Square - Porter Square. The new watertown branch would consist of an extended Comm Ave subway all the way up Brighton Ave/North Beacon street, cross the Charles, and then utilize the old RR ROW to avoid having to dig up Arsenal Street (It should still be underground, but digging up parking lots is far less disruptive then a major artery).
2:Riverside - Porter Square. The original plans for the Stuart St/Hunting Ave Subway would be carried out, connecting at Brookline Village. The small street running portion of the E that's left would have to be abandoned.
3: Needham Junction - West Medford. Pretty self explanatory.

Yellow Line: All trolleys, as follows:
A: Harvard Square - Lechmere via BU and MIT. This would start in the old harvard tunnel and run on the ROW harvard is/has constructed to Allston landing (CSX yard), where it would take the Grand Junction Branch out to the new Lechmere. Connections to the RL at Harvard and Kendall, and to the GL at BU Bridge and Lechmere.
B: Boston College - Packards Corner. Packards Corner would be the exact same setup as Kenmore, but perhaps with the trolley tracks in pavement allowing the 57 to also loop underground, and allow for a direct transfer to the subway.
C: Cleveland Circle - Kenmore. Duh.
D: I was thinking Reservoir to Kenmore, or perhaps Forest Hills to Kenmore. Not really sure on this one.
E: Ashmont - Blue Hill Ave. Same routing, just extended up Blue Hill Avenue to the proposed Indigo Line (red in my proposal)
F: Park Street - Dudley Square. Obviously utilizing the abandoned tunnels, and then street running on Washington Street. The biggest problem here is that the GL and trolleys would have to criss cross between Boylston and Park, but I think it would be possible with proper signaling.
G: Airport - South Station. This is a toughie because of the tunnel and perhaps should remain a bus, but either way I think it would be helpful if the BL airport stop were included in the loop, I added in the hotel on the way back as well.
I see many other possibilities of trolleys being used if the city can ever get off its anti-street running agenda. I'd love to see the Maverick portal reopened with a branch going out to Chelsea, and perhaps more trolley service in roxy and dorchester. I don't know enough about those areas however to put something together.
The choice of the Yellow is that trolleys are similar to buses (especially if they start street running), but better (hence their position on the subway map). Also this would allow them all to be painted in the traction orange PCC scheme, which quite frankly is a wet dream of mine, lol.

Red Line: I didn't do anything at the northern end because Arlington is opposed to it. I'm also not sure if the population density around Belmont Station would justify an extension and reconstruction of Ashmont to facilitate a split in the line. I did however include the Indigo Line as part of the red line because I feel in order to be successful it would need better connections then dead ending at South Station. I also went ahead and extended the line past Readville out to Amtrak/Route 128 to allow the use of the Park and Ride there. I have to say I do like the idea of turning the Ashmont Branch into a trolley line, as this would decrease crowding of having three lines turning into one.

Blue Line: Just followed the proposed expansion plans, Charles MGH to the West and Lynn to the east. I varied from the supported proposals however in that I am a huge supporter of the Point of Pines routing, and I also extended past Lynn to swampscott to allow the use of the old Marblehead Branch as a small yard.
A lot of people on this board support continuing past Charles on some routing or another, but I just don't agree with it. I feel that the Blue Line serves a very distinct purpose of getting people across the harbor, and it would diminish the service to have it do anything else. Also many people are using the blue line to connect with the other lines, so I feel that the through-put of people riding beyond charles would be slim to none.

Orange Line: Not on the map yet, but it would be extended north to 128 and split at Forest Hills, branching to West Roxbury (which should have been done to begin with) and Readville (or perhaps Amtrak/Route 128, allowing commuters multiple options into town)



I feel a lot of this could be completed cheaply if there was the will. The "indigo line" already exists, and would only need to be tied into the red line. As does the blue line ROW. Harvard BU and MIT all want roughly the proposed transit link I have put in, and completes a part of the urban ring. With rail. On existing (or in Harvards case proposed, but going to be made) ROWs. The most expensive part of my proposal is the Green Line renovation project, which would be quite costly. However the green line is literally killing itself, and converting to heavy rail is really the only solution.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the "indigo line"? Is it part of the commuter rail?

I think converting the Green Line to heavy rail (at least the Central Subway and D branch) is definitely needed sometime in the future, although renovating the Central Subway's tight curves near Park Street and Government Center will NOT be cheap! I think the platforms are long enough for a four-car train of Blue Line-style stock in most of those stations, however.

You need to modify your map to show the newly discovered gold mine in Eastern Massachusetts that will be necessary to fund all of these extensions and the massive increase in annual operating expenses that would result.

TrainManTy wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but what is the "indigo line"? Is it part of the commuter rail?

Here is an older topic on the Indigo Line: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 56#p210356

This thread deals with too much of a variety of topics. All topics like this in the past have failed. I won't lock this thread just yet. But it needs to stay on a very general topic. As soon as people start taking lines and trying to discuss them, I am going to have lock it. We have threads for every imaginable extension as it is.

My problem with this topic (aside from the fact that it has already been discussed), is that it is never gonig to happen. With all due respect, it would be more prodcutive to rent a studio somehwere and build an HO model set with these kinds ideas. But other than that, I start to grow tired of the constant talking and dreaming of "if I owned the MBTA, here's what I would do." Not to rain on everybody's parade, but nothing that is being dicussed has any chance of ever happening, nor should it. I think a more realistic prediction would be the removal of all surface lines. I think it is a realistic expectation to see the green line converted underground to some form of narrow gage heavy rail, with the surface lines from Kenmore, comletely done away with, and replaced with some form of electric coach (I won't use the "B" word, but you know what I mean).

I'm sorry, I know that is not what you want to hear. But from a fiscal perspective, that is what is most likely to happen.
I don't think the younger people who live in the Boston area these days really care for the silver and green rust machines that rumble through Brookline. No, that's not my perspective, it's just a feeling I have. Having lived in the Boston area through a number of years and seeing the A lines and E lines slowly get erased, and the Orange Line to Forest Hills burried and tucked away out of sight, I think that is sadly what is most likely to happen.

Again, I'm sorry if that upsets a lot of you, but that is what I see, MBTA contraction, not expansion. For the record, I've always liked the MBTA, the trains, the PCC's the LRVs, all of them. I think rail is the best way to get around. I'm just being realistic. But we're itching to get let down and disappointed.

-Garrett wrote:Again, I'm sorry if that upsets a lot of you, but that is what I see, MBTA contraction, not expansion.

Unfortunately I have to say I think you're right, that does seem to be all that's happening... as far as heavy/light rail goes anyways... I feel like all the MBTA really wants to expand is the commuter rail service to more far-out places.

EDIT: By the way, feel free to lock, sery2831. I should have searched first for similair threads I suppose, seeing as I know I'm obviously not going to be the first to do this. And there really is no real, concrete discussion to this. So, might as well end it before this goes in 50 directions at once.

If the heavy/light rail lines are abandoned, what would they be replaced with? Buses only have a fraction of the capacity. The loss of those transit options would strike a major blow to Boston's economy.

BUE and FP10: Interesting ideas and maps to expand the MBTA's rail services-now let's see how many of these changes become reality over time...
I wonder how the MBTA would have fared had State funding been available and not wasted in massive cost overruns on the Big Dig project...
MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX wrote:BUE and FP10: Interesting ideas and maps to expand the MBTA's rail services-now let's see how many of these changes become reality over time...
I wonder how the MBTA would have fared had State funding been available and not wasted in massive cost overruns on the Big Dig project...
MACTRAXX

I wonder how MBCR would've fared had the Big Dig dug the central artery tunnel about 20 feet wider between North station and South station. Imagine if all the northside and southside trains became through trains, time to catch the Haverhill to Providence train making stops at both north and south stations.

Well,,,since we're throwing out our dream MBTA systems, here's mine. All the Green routes are LRV's, mostly surface except for the existing tunnels, of course. I would convert the Central Subway on the Green Line to an extension of the Blue Line, which would be routed through Kenmore and out to Riverside and Needham. The B and C Green Lines would be preserved and connected to Boylston, Park and through to Lechmere by way of a tunnel through the Longwood area and Stuart Street, connecting with the abandoned Tremont Street tunnel. The Red Line Ashmont Branch would be converted to an extension of the Mattapan light rail line.

RL: The connecting tunnel between North and South Stations should have been part of the Big Dig project.
A unified Commuter Rail system(similar to SEPTA in Philadelphia's Center City Commuter Connection)would have a major MBTA improvement
and a big advantage for the Boston region.

Charlie: Good ideas and good thoughts for a MBTA Rapid Transit expansion.
I feel that major changes will be made to the MBTA's system especially if fuel becomes expensive and transit becomes an even larger alternative.
Thoughts by MACTRAXX

-Garrett wrote:Again, I'm sorry if that upsets a lot of you, but that is what I see, MBTA contraction, not expansion.

I don't see contraction - for starters, the communities of Brookline and Allston-Brighton are among the most liberal in Eastern Massachusetts and would never stand for removal of the Green Line branches. That said, I do not see any large-scale expansion projects in the near future given the current economic climate. Governor Patrick may be in favor of the commuter rail expansion to Fall River and New Bedford, but unless he has a printing press in the basement of the State House that is churning out new greenbacks, I don't see it happening.

What I believe is more likely are medium sized, realistic projects like the Indigo Line and Green Line extension to Somerville and Medford that involve modification of existing railroad rights-of-way. Similarly, the Blue Line extension to Lynn makes a lot of sense and still could happen. Big-time tunneling projects like the Red-Blue connector and Silver Line Phase III are probably not going to happen for many years, if ever.

Just my $.02.

Jim D.