Biggest Bottlenecks

justalurker66 wrote:

jb9152 wrote:The 11th Street option is the only affordable solution that meets all of NICTD's requirements, and does not force the railroad to accept dispatching control by another entity. How about this - Amtrak connects into the South Shore east and west of Michigan City, and uses the new 11th & Franklin station, as do all municipal buses and maybe even Coach USA and Greyhound. How's that for a TOD driver?

Where east and west would be the question.

Indeed. West side is not a problem, but the east side is quite impractical, involving civil engineering, over wilderness and wetlands, including property acquisition, easily comparable to the 45 ft. bridge. Plus it's longer and less straight. For HSR, this means the northern route will end up being more cost-effective even with a 45-ft bridge.

If Amtrak really wants a new route through Michigan City they could move to the CSX line and build a connector up north ...

Likely comparable to the cost of the 45 ft bridge, and nearly as many grade crossings as the 11th St. corridor; even longer than either; and CSX has shown no interest in selling.

In other words, HSR is going to follow the existing Amtrak alignment, more or less, and there will probably be a 45 ft bridge eventually. If NICTD decides on an 11th St. Station, there will either be two stations in Michigan City, or Amtrak will just skip Michigan City entirely. (The HSR support is coming from the States of Michigan and Illinois, among others, but not Indiana.)

neroden wrote:Given the funding situation and the relative numbers of trains, I have little doubt that Amtrak would be willing to become the tenant, if it meant it got fast double track with a high bridge, and a two-platform station integrated with the South Shore. The first enhances schedule reliability, and the second enhances ridership. And it takes the maintenance costs off Amtrak.

Actually, they would not be willing to become the tenant. I had extensive dealings with them, and the last thing they want, just like South Shore, is to turn anymore control of their trains over to another railroad. And regarding the funding situation - Amtrak's is *much* better than NICTD's right now.

neroden wrote:Amtrak is already running through *three* host railroads not counting Amtrak on the Pontiac route, all of which (as freight carriers) are less friendly to passenger scheduling. I have no doubt the South Shore dispatchers could pass Amtrak's 6 trains each way safely and promptly through amidst the commuter traffic; the train interference problems would not be significantly different from the existing diamond.

Depends on where and when these Amtrak trains would be operating. NICTD's railroad is single track with passing sidings east of Gary, with one nice long section of double track through Ogden Dunes. Otherwise, meets have to be arranged. When one train is running late, the other waits. So, the train interference problems would be much worse than the existing diamond if (as they often are) Amtrak is late. It doesn't matter how promptly the NICTD dispatcher can line the route - the on-time train is going to wait for the late one, and now you have two late trains.

neroden wrote:So it comes down to not wanting to build an expensive, giant bridge. Unfortunate. If the plans had been done earlier, they could have applied for stimulus funding.

Well, it's not just the bridge. It's a lot of other ancillary infrastructure, including an elevated station (with the ADA required elevators, escalators, etc.). Capital construction costs are *much* higher for the Amtrak route, and annual maintenance costs would be much higher as well. The 11th Street alignment is simply the most bang for the buck.

neroden wrote:Given the funding situation and the relative numbers of trains, I have little doubt that Amtrak would be willing to become the tenant, if it meant it got fast double track with a high bridge, and a two-platform station integrated with the South Shore.

Amtrak is working AWAY from sharing rails and being a tenant. The South Shore isn't going to buy them a bridge. Amtrak isn't going to buy the South Shore a bridge. The bridge has to make sense for each railroad on it's own.

neroden wrote:West side is not a problem, but the east side is quite impractical, involving civil engineering, over wilderness and wetlands, including property acquisition, easily comparable to the 45 ft. bridge. Plus it's longer and less straight. For HSR, this means the northern route will end up being more cost-effective even with a 45-ft bridge.

Are you a politician? When given a choice between a $20 million project and a $200 million project you compare both to a project with no price claiming the $200 million is cheap?

Amtrak will have to deal with the swing bridge eventually ... but as part of a single track line it will nowhere near the cost of a double track bridge, especially one that would need a Y above ground level to lead off to the NICTD yard and overhead electric. Most likely just a replacement swing bridge or other short movable span. As you note, there are not a lot of Amtrak trains on the line. Amtrak doesn't need 45ft tall grade separation.

If Amtrak really wants a new route through Michigan City they could move to the CSX line and build a connector up north ...

Likely comparable to the cost of the 45 ft bridge, and nearly as many grade crossings as the 11th St. corridor; even longer than either; and CSX has shown no interest in selling.

Take a look along the line. Nothing has as many grade crossings as the current 11th St corridor - and even cut in half with the proposed modification NICTD will have more crossings than either Amtrak used route.

If NICTD decides on an 11th St. Station, there will either be two stations in Michigan City, or Amtrak will just skip Michigan City entirely. (The HSR support is coming from the States of Michigan and Illinois, among others, but not Indiana.)

There are already three stations in Michigan City ... NICTD's plan closes one of them and consolidates their passenger service downtown with four times as much parking as they currently have at the Carroll Ave station and 26 times more parking at the new downtown station. "Two" is a decrease.

neroden wrote:(The HSR support is coming from the States of Michigan and Illinois, among others, but not Indiana.)

Incorrect. Indiana is contributing $55 million at last report...

jb9152 wrote:

neroden wrote:(The HSR support is coming from the States of Michigan and Illinois, among others, but not Indiana.)

Incorrect. Indiana is contributing $55 million at last report...

Good news, and *brand new*. It's the first money they've put in.