NJT to benefit from economic stimulus??

Well spoken Mr Pullman,articulate,understandable and a good overall commentary of what we are trying to achieve,thank you! Your are an asset to this forum and I enjoy reading your comments,I only wish you could speak to the NJ senate and assembly,you would advance the railroad cause 25 years both for South Jersey and also North Jersey.

Mr. Pullman you have my vote. You are more well spoken than I am, and support not only increasing rail service, but New Jersey as one, not two parts.

Source?

NJ Transit:

First off allow me to say hi. I have long been a "lurker" here on the boards and this is my first time posting. I want to especially thank all the NJT employees who post here and share their experiences and information with us the "public". You guys are a great source of facts that I find fascinating. Not only have I been a rail buff for a while, but I commute daily to the city on the train.

Moving on to the reason for my emergence on the board and sorry for interrupting your south jersey love fest, but the funds are really needed in the north. I don't like playing civil war with the north vs. the south but you guys are making it hard not to. Are there beneficial projects that could be undertaken in the south? Sure, and I'm not at all saying that the south shouldn’t get anything. But north jersey is where the action is. While we do have many services up here, we still don't have nearly enough, and the service that we do have is plagued with problems. Would there be high ridership in south jersey if there was comparable service as in the north? Perhaps (although I doubt it). Plus there's a serious capacity constraint which is Delair Bridge and Shore Interlocking that prohibits very frequent service to Philadelphia. NJT should concentrate on getting its existing service functioning well before branching off to tackle other endeavors.

Now is when I expect my attack from PullmanCo (who serves as a great mindless attack dog) arguing that It's unfair to look at southern jersey as a Philadelphia commuter market and that there are lots of intrastate trips that people will take. Besides that being rhetoric (count how often PullmanCo uses that word to attack people, it's fun), NJT is a commuter railroad. Building an intrastate line in south jersey won't happen for the same reason why transfers aren't scheduled at Secaucus traveling west on the corridor, because it doesn't serve the masses.

I look forwarded to spirited debate but must ask PullmanCo to consider the tenor of his posts. It always sounds like you’re talking down to people and quite frankly, it's just rude. There's a difference between poking fun at someone and intentional trying to belittle them. Please be mindful of that in the future when you post.

wots hater wrote:First off allow me to say hi. I have long been a "lurker" here on the boards and this is my first time posting. I want to especially thank all the NJT employees who post here and share their experiences and information with us the "public". You guys are a great source of facts that I find fascinating. Not only have I been a rail buff for a while, but I commute daily to the city on the train.

Moving on to the reason for my emergence on the board and sorry for interrupting your south jersey love fest, but the funds are really needed in the north. I don't like playing civil war with the north vs. the south but you guys are making it hard not to. Are there beneficial projects that could be undertaken in the south? Sure, and I'm not at all saying that the south shouldn’t get anything. But north jersey is where the action is. While we do have many services up here, we still don't have nearly enough, and the service that we do have is plagued with problems. Would there be high ridership in south jersey if there was comparable service as in the north? Perhaps (although I doubt it). Plus there's a serious capacity constraint which is Delair Bridge and Shore Interlocking that prohibits very frequent service to Philadelphia. NJT should concentrate on getting its existing service functioning well before branching off to tackle other endeavors.

Now is when I expect my attack from PullmanCo (who serves as a great mindless attack dog) arguing that It's unfair to look at southern jersey as a Philadelphia commuter market and that there are lots of intrastate trips that people will take. Besides that being rhetoric (count how often PullmanCo uses that word to attack people, it's fun), NJT is a commuter railroad. Building an intrastate line in south jersey won't happen for the same reason why transfers aren't scheduled at Secaucus traveling west on the corridor, because it doesn't serve the masses.

I look forwarded to spirited debate but must ask PullmanCo to consider the tenor of his posts. It always sounds like you’re talking down to people and quite frankly, it's just rude. There's a difference between poking fun at someone and intentional trying to belittle them. Please be mindful of that in the future when you post.

Now I'm not attacking you, but I'd like to point out that
(1.) All but one (two depending on how you count Light Rail) of NJ Transit's Train lines run trough North Jersey, so I"d like to know which part you're talking about. I'm going to assume the North Western or Sussex County. They are however planning on rebuilding the Lackawanna Cut Off and possibly reviving Phillipsburg and West Trenton Service as well as the Northern Branch. M.O.M. (North/Central Jersey) is mired in discussion and debate and talk and will be built shortly after Armageddon at this rate. We need to unite on rail more than dissent. You really don't see us bashing North Jersey projects. The Lackawanna Cutoff like I said before would serve less people annually than a good line through Cape May County. I'm not bashing it, I'm just stating my own guess based on population and how it changes throughout the year.
(2.) Somewhere along the lines here we did talk about Deliere (not sure about spelling) and it would be a joint Conrail, NJ Transit project if I remember correctly. Look back a few pages, I did bring that up. If you go to the PATCO expansion thread under SEPTA you can see where people talked about alternate routs into Philly http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.ph ... 05#p635623 Personally, I think we should replace Deleir and built another Bridge from Gloucester (the city) through the Navy area through South Philly into 30th Street, oddly enough this would allow for through running.
(3.) People in South Jersey tend to work in... South Jersey. I know of a good handful of people from Cape May who commute to Vineland, Millville, A.C. etc.
(4.) Most of the money goes to North Jersey anyway. Believe you me, the reason why we South Jersey people are so passionate is that we're trying to get more than the "table scraps". We in South Jersey feel very slighted by our government.
(5.) The South Jersey market is MUCH different from the North Jersey Market. We're not nearly as "NYC or bust" about Philly as you guys are. In fact, a lot of people HATE Philly commuters and whish they lived in SEPTA territory so they could get off our roads in the morning.
(6.) I agree that the Shore Interlocking should be fixed, finally, someone bringing up something a little more relevant
(7.) I don't think PullmanCo. was intentionally trying to belittle anyone. I did see him strike back after being insulted mind you. Also, you want to see belittlement, look back a little more when I first asked if we would be getting any money down here for new projects etc.
(8.) He is right, it IS unfair to look at South Jersey as a Philly Commuter market, it's an intrastate commuter market
(9.) Congratulations on your first post!! I believe you coherently made your point and made an attempt at staying on topic. Now all you have to do is start beating a dead horse...
(10.) As I've warned before, we're getting really off topic. I started this by asking about fixing the rails for the CMSL and feel bad that I've started this war.
(11.) CMSL, worth fixing the rails for or not? NJ Transit seems to be willing if given the money.

I hope I wasn't too brutal.

I think its time this one is locked up before all hell breaks loose, don't you agree???

blockline4180 wrote:I think its time this one is locked up before all hell breaks loose, don't you agree???

I'm starting to agree with that

he Lackawanna Cutoff like I said before would serve less people annually than a good line through Cape May County. I'm not bashing it, I'm just stating my own guess based on population and how it changes throughout the year.

Scranton Pa has a metro area population of 550,000. The City of Scranton itself has a larger population than Atlantic City, but you think train service to a town with a population of 3,000 (Cape May) is better than bringing rail service to a City with a population of 80,000 and a metro area of 550,000 (Scranton). How can you justify these opinions other than just selfish geographical reasons.

No need to lock this up and things are still pretty civil

This thread brings up an interesting debate: Should the expansion of rail service be based on potential ridership alone or should balancing out service between North and South Jersey also be considered?

In a perfect world there would be plenty of funding for MOM, the Southern Secondary, Cape May, etc. However, this is not the case so we have to make intelligent decisions about where the money can best be spent.

There would be nothing worse than spending millions only to end up with a line with very low ridership. This is a victory for the NIMBYS and does nothing to advance the long-term expansion of rail service. By the way, I am referring to no specific line with this statement.

Speaking of NIMBYS, if someone disagrees with your estimates for potential ridership that does not make him/her a NIMBY.

MOM can be seen as a vital link as it could potentially link South and North Jersey, so I think of all the projects out there build MOM. That said we have been saying build this and that for years yet everything is thrown into that damn tunnel, which is needed but at the same time there needs to be more focus on the New Jersey in New Jersey Transit.

Tom V wrote:

he Lackawanna Cutoff like I said before would serve less people annually than a good line through Cape May County. I'm not bashing it, I'm just stating my own guess based on population and how it changes throughout the year.

Scranton Pa has a metro area population of 550,000. The City of Scranton itself has a larger population than Atlantic City, but you think train service to a town with a population of 3,000 (Cape May) is better than bringing rail service to a City with a population of 80,000 and a metro area of 550,000 (Scranton). How can you justify these opinions other than just selfish geographical reasons.

My point was that the both lines serve about the same year round population and that the Cape May population is more spread out along the line where the Lackawana Cutoff has a lot more nothingness. Mind you, I totally forgot about metro areas. The only problem with your example is that you have 500,000 people to one train station at the end of the line, most of which who have to drive anyway, and may cause them to do what we do and just keep on driving, I do not know however because I am not from the area and therefore cannot speak for teh. However, Cape May County's population more than quadruples May - October giving it a larger population. This is not geographical selfishness, this is wanting to improve an area and defending its right to mass transit. Geographical selfishness would be me wanting the line that once ran from Vineland to Jersey City restored and going into NY Penn (it was Jersey Central, and most people in town would possibly be for it, but that is another story).

Three good reasons Cape May County deserves rail service
(1.) Atlantic, Cape May, and Cumberland Counties are the top three counties for tourism and are the three highest in amount of cash earned from tourism (I was shocked by Cumberland making it)
(2.) Reduces traffic congestion in the entire southern NJ area durring summer months
(3.) Has dense enough population where people can walk/ride bikes to the train station

However, I would like to say that I support the Lackawanna Cutoff and am not placing it under the Cape May County line idea. I would place it above it solely because if I remember correctly they have a decent number of NYC commuters, where as Cape May commuters don't really go beyond their own county or Cumberland or Atlantic Counties.

As supporters of rail we should not bash the concept of a new line. We should instead debate what is the best option for that line, nothing is not an option for Cape May county. We not only as railfans need to unite, but as a state. This North/South divide is VERY deep and it causes many problems. You probably have no idea how slighted by our government we here in South Jersey feel and are.

My only request from you is this, allow the idea of a Cape May line (NJ Transit did look at this within this millennium). Don't keep pushing the idea back, but keep it on mind as thought. Who knows how successful any line will be until it is up and running. I just want you to agree that it is a "nice idea" and is something that should be done, but that there are more pressing matters currently at hand.

edit* Such as finally making a decision on the M.O.M. a potentially vital link between North and South. Odley enough, connecting it to SJ at Winslow would be rebuilding most of my example of a geographically selfish line.

Waiting, yes, the population on the islands in Cape May County explodes in the summer. The point that I was trying to make is that a large percentage of this increase is not going to even consider a train to the Jersey Shore.

A large percentage of these tourists are families who are renting condos for a week or two. The typical American family brings a lot of stuff to the Jersey Shore such as beach chairs, coolers, umbrellas, boogie boards, sandcastle equipment, towels, fishing rods, crab pots, a week of clothes, etc. A typical family is NOT going to haul all of this stuff on a train. The modern Jersey Shore vacation is also based on freedom and mobility once the family arrives. For example, lets say a family is staying in Ocean City. There is a great chance that mom and dad will be making a trip to one of the liquor stores off of the island. There is also a great chance that there will be a family dinner in Marmora or Somers Point. Maybe dad wants to take his kid fishing at Corsons Inlet. Again, a typical family is not going to call cabs to run these errands. My point here is that this vacation pattern is very typical of those who visit the Jersey Shore during the summer and a car is key to this lifestyle.

Also, lets not forget that a lot of PA folks visit the Jersey Shore as well and they are even less likely to leave their cars at home than the NJ crowd as their trip would be a lot longer and require multiple trains.

Now, the train would work awesome for day-trippers and those who are staying the weekend and those who would be content with bringing less stuff and being less mobile.

The key here is how many vacationers would give up their cars and take the train. Our best bet here is to look at the NJCL as a model for what could be expected as far as summer visitors...

Waiting, yes, the population on the islands in Cape May County explodes in the summer. The point that I was trying to make is that a large percentage of this increase is not going to even consider a train to the Jersey Shore.

A large percentage of these tourists are families who are renting condos for a week or two. The typical American family brings a lot of stuff to the Jersey Shore such as beach chairs, coolers, umbrellas, boogie boards, sandcastle equipment, towels, fishing rods, crab pots, a week of clothes, etc. A typical family is NOT going to haul all of this stuff on a train. The modern Jersey Shore vacation is also based on freedom and mobility once the family arrives. For example, lets say a family is staying in Ocean City. There is a great chance that mom and dad will be making a trip to one of the liquor stores off of the island. There is also a great chance that there will be a family dinner in Marmora or Somers Point. Maybe dad wants to take his kid fishing at Corsons Inlet. Again, a typical family is not going to call cabs to run these errands. My point here is that this vacation pattern is very typical of those who visit the Jersey Shore during the summer and a car is key to this lifestyle.

Also, lets not forget that a lot of PA folks visit the Jersey Shore as well and they are even less likely to leave their cars at home than the NJ crowd as their trip would be a lot longer and require multiple trains.

Now, the train would work awesome for day-trippers and those who are staying the weekend and those who would be content with bringing less stuff and being less mobile.

The key here is how many vacationers would give up their cars and take the train. Our best bet here is to look at the NJCL as a model for what could be expected as far as summer visitors...

I think you have a very good point Demarco. There are definitely many more factors that should be investigated. On that note I would like to find out where NJ Transit is with studying projects on that map of theirs. They had the Cape May line as "to be studied/defined"

Well I was going to rest a bit but do to the intense discusion I must respond.I lived in Camden County.Many many south Jersey workers do go to Philly to work,,you have to leave Philly by 3 45 pm to avoid the massive traffic jam till 630pm going back to Jersey and on nice shore weekends, the traffic is even worse.Rt 42 and 295 meet..a mess,than 42 splits in Washinton twp,half going on the expressway,the other half in the Black Horse Pike.
I know many people will not go to the shore on weekends due to the congestion plus all backed up for miles coming home on sunday nites.The trains leaving Philly would pick up many workers dropping them off at various stations and pickup tourists all along the route going to the shore,a constant flow of people onto the trains at many stops would make this line very worth while going and coming.Yes its true many would not use the train,but for the many that do its worth while.We in south Jersey are trying be fair but its seems you dont want three quarters of the funds,you want all of the funds year after year.We should not have to constandly explain our reasons over and over for a small share of the pie to fix some of the rails we like.Without south Jerseys tax dollars not much would get down up north.The south Jersey shore and Atlantic City pumps billions into Trenton tax coffers.Like it or not...sooner or later we will get that line fixed to Cape May.Just wait and see,if not this year,next year but we will.Its amazing how you dont want to work together and help each other for all of our rail needs ..north and south.I love to see the Flemington to Lambertville line restored and its up north.Not because its a busy line,but because its historical and senic along the canals,hard to find railroads along canals filled with history,its not all about getting to work,its also about history and fun on weekends and when your retired to travel these rails,its about railroading.CMSL fills both functions,transportation and nice old fashion train travel on an old historical senic line through the pinelands and to the shore though quaint 1950s towns.We are lucky in New Jersey to have such a line to save as many like it are long gone and cant be brought back.So the more its repaired,the more railroad history we will perserved for all us and future generations of railroaders.