Binghamton NY - New York City NYC Passenger Rail Discussion

Correct, Mr. RichM; that NJ and PA have a reciprocal agreement regarding the taxation of W-2 reported compensation, but be assured NY (and NY City) does not have reciprocal agreements with any other State. That is why my earlier point only addressed Real Estate Taxes.

what if NJT looked at charging higher prices in Scranton such that the service was unsubsudized and actually provided a contribution towards their equipment? Assuming this is feasible.

Yea like $100 to go from scranton to NYP, that would probably provide for break-even operation.

Seems like we're all over the place on this one. Closing time? Last call...

Otto, you're right, but there's an interesting perspective to this... how could the NE Corridor possibly be run by the regional transit agencies if there's so many conflicting concepts on margin and variable costs, commuting patterns, and revenue generation between just two or three states?

Another forum should probably be started by for this and probably not in the Amtrak forum but, If the regional transit agencies took over the NEC things would be a mess as each state would want to run their trains over each other forget about joint ventures.

Keeping to the topic of Binghamton I don't see anything happening with in the next few years especially with the way New York is now concerning Financial matters.

As I pointed out earlier, a NYC - Binghamton route ought to go to Scranton, in order to get the passengers there.

One can mostly avoid going through Pennsylvania by using a railroad line between Port Jervis and Binghamton; that line follows the Delaware River on its New York side, departs at Deposit, crosses into Pennsylvania at Cascade Valley, and back into New York at Riverside before arriving at Binghamton.

But the closest that that line comes to Scranton is Narrowsburg, NY, a tiny town about 46 miles away by road. By comparison, Binghamton is 60 miles away and NYC 122 mi away.

However, going to Scranton will require political support from Pennsylvania and New Jersey, and all I'll say about that is getting European nations to cooperate on rail projects is often easier than getting US states to do so. So we might have passenger service from Philadelphia to Scranton before we have it from NYC to Scranton. It is 124 mi, and it goes through Bethlehem, PA, another sizable Pennsylvania town.

PennDOT has been willing to spend money on the Keystone Service trains from Philly to Harrisburg (107 mi), and that's likely because the route is relatively straight and electrified, making sort-of high-speed service relatively easy to implement. However, the existing tracks in northeastern PA and nearby NY are rather twisty and would require some additional construction to straighten out for high-speed service.

Finally, I checked on the the tracks at Binghamton, and they form a wye, meaning that one can avoid reversing direction there when going Scranton - Binghamton - Syracuse. However, that will require constructing a new station, most likely an Amshack, which Amtrak has done elsewhere.

^The answer for twisty track is tilting trains.

The Amtrak Cascades Talgo from Seattle to Portland averages 53 mph (timetable speed). That is very good for an American train anywhere in the country, so it is especially impressive given the terrain.

Talgos can't be used on the route now. NJ Transit has built a few high platforms on the former all-low E-L territory (their "Hoboken Divison"). If a service like this were to start up, it can't skip stations like Newark (Broad Street) or Dover in New Jersey, assuming the Lackawanna route, and there's high platforms at stations like Secaucus and Paterson on the Erie routes. (The Lackawanna did try out the ACF Talgo in the 50s, but that didn't get off the ground.)

BTW, the bus was mentioned earlier in the thread. I checked the ShortLine timetable and it shows a 3½-hour trip for an average speed of 55 mph, which is kinda unusual for a highway bus with a number of stops, and really difficult to impossible in traffic (maybe even overly optimistic; there's a lot of traffic in NJ, especially at interchanges and tunnel entrances). This old Phoebe Snow timetable shows a trip time of almost 4½ hours, which is an average speed of 43 mph (almost equal distance in spite of different routes); but there are a bunch of stops in New Jersey and the Poconos that an Amtrak train wouldn't stop at today (Brick Church, Summit, Blairstown, Cresco, Pocono Summit), so it wouldn't be a stretch to maintain enough of politically-expedient station stops and get the average speed up to 55 mph.

News Release from Senator Schumer's Office - December 4, 2008

SCHUMER URGES NEW AMTRAK PRESIDENT TO HELP BRING EFFICIENT, RELIABLE TRAIN SERVICE BETWEEN BINGHAMTON AND NEW YORK CITY – EXPAND RAIL SERVICE FROM SCRANTON TO BINGHAMTON

With Scranton-Hoboken Line Moving Forward, Expanding Rail Service from Scranton to Binghamton Would Provide Vital Link to New York City - Profoundly Impact Economic Development in the Region

Schumer Successfully Urged NYSDOT and Amtrak This Year to Conduct Feasibility Study, and Built Coalition of Supportive U.S. Senators to Ratchet-Up Pressure

Senator Writes Personal Letter to New Amtrak Interim President and CEO Joseph Boardman, a native New Yorker and Binghamton University Graduate, Requesting His Attention to Binghamton-New York City Train Service

In a boost to efforts to establish train service between Binghamton and New York City, U.S. Senator Charles E. Schumer today urged new Amtrak President and CEO Joseph Boardman to look into expanding rail service from Scranton to Binghamton, which would provide a vital link to New York City for Binghamton residents and aid economic development across the region. Earlier this year, Schumer announced that New York State Department of Transportation (NYSDOT) and Amtrak had agreed to conduct a feasibility study for rail service along the I-81 rail corridor. The Senator also ratcheted-up pressure by building a powerful congressional coalition, consisting of fellow New York Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton and Pennsylvania Senators Bob Casey and Arlen Specter, to pressure Amtrak to conduct the feasibility study.

Calling more attention to the issue, Schumer, in a personal letter today, requested Boardman’s attention to the efforts of bringing vital train service between Binghamton and New York City by expanding rail service from Scranton to Binghamton. Schumer also congratulated Boardman on his new appointment.

“I believe Mr. Boardman, who went to school at Binghamton University, could be a big help in our efforts to secure efficient rail train service between Binghamton and New York City,” Schumer said. “Train service between Binghamton and New York City would be a huge win-win by providing critical rail service for residents and an economic boost for the region. Mr. Boardman comes into this position with a wealth of knowledge and expertise and I am confident he will make strong contributions to Amtrak.”

Schumer has long stressed that an existing joint Pennsylvania-New Jersey effort to return commuter based service between Scranton, Pennsylvania, and Hoboken, New Jersey, known as the New Jersey-Pennsylvania Lackawanna Cutoff Rail Restoration, holds the potential to create a rail link from Binghamton to New York City, via Scranton and Hoboken. The Lackawanna Cutoff Project will connect with existing New Jersey Transit Lines leading into New York City. The Binghamton - Scranton line would hook up to the Lackawanna Cutoff Project once it’s completed for access to New York City, complementing this project by providing even more access for riders.

This passenger rail expansion would provide countless benefits to Binghamton residents who would take advantage of this new service to ultimately gain access to New York City by way of Scranton and Hoboken. Additionally, with this new service, more business and leisure travelers from New York City would be able to access the many assets—from academic facilities to businesses and cultural opportunities—that Binghamton has to offer, and tap into the local economy for new economic development opportunities.

Schumer in November of 2007 sent a letter to the New York Transportation Commissioner Astrid Glynn and Amtrak CEO Alexander Kummant urging them to conduct a feasibility study that analyzes the costs and benefits of passenger service and documents commuter patterns. The scope of the study is intended to compliment the Binghamton Based Intercity Rail Passenger Study submitted to New York State Department of Transportation in 2002. Once the state requests this study, Amtrak can move forward with the project using existing funds already budgeted for this purpose.

In January, Schumer built a powerful Congressional coalition to ratchet-up pressure on Amtrak to conduct a feasibility study for the passenger rail service. The coalition consists of fellow New York Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton and Pennsylvania Senators Bob Casey and Arlen Specter.

Today, Schumer wrote to Boardman in his letter, “The efforts the states of Pennsylvania and New Jersey have undertaken to mitigate traffic congestion and restore commuter service into New York City as far as Scranton have created a ripe opportunity for the Southern Tier to connect to this effort. The connection out of Binghamton thru Scranton will provide a vital link for residents of the Southern Tier to New York City and at the same time profoundly impact economic development throughout this region. As a native New Yorker I know you have a strong understanding and appreciation for our great State and the many challenges it faces and certainly recognize the value that such a project could bring.”

Below is a full copy of the letter:

Joseph H. Boardman
60 Massachusetts Avenue NE
Washington D.C 20002

Dear Mr. Boardman,

I write to you today to firstly congratulate you on having been named Amtrak's interim President and CEO. You bring a wealth of knowledge and expertise from your many years working in and with various facets of the transportation industry. I know you will make strong contributions to this critical component of our nation's transportation network and I look forward to working with you and seeing Amtrak continue to thrive under your tenure.

I also write to you today in regards to an effort to implement passenger rail service from Binghamton New York to Scranton, Pennsylvania to ultimately reach New York City. This is a project that I have been a strong supporter of and lobbied both the New York State Department of Transportation and Amtrak to assist with a ridership feasibility study of said route.

The efforts the states of Pennsylvania and New Jersey have undertaken to mitigate traffic congestion and restore commuter service into New York City as far as Scranton have created a ripe opportunity for the Southern Tier to connect to this effort. The connection out of Binghamton thru Scranton will provide a vital link for residents of the Southern Tier to New York City and at the same time profoundly impact economic development throughout this region. As a native New Yorker I know you have a strong understanding and appreciation for our great State and the many challenges it faces and certainly recognize the value that such a project could bring.

I appreciate the responsiveness of both the New York State Department of Transportation and Amtrak to my requests thus far. I understand that the parameters of a ridership feasibility study are under development and look forward to the commencement of this analysis. As you assume the duties and responsibilities of President and CEO of Amtrak you should be mindful of the importance this critical project holds for the entire Southern Tier Region. I ask that you do everything in your power to support this effort and see that it continues to receive the utmost attention.

Again congratulations on your appointment. I thank you for your attention to this matter and stand ready to assist you and Amtrak in any way I am able.

so how long would it cost and how long would it take to get there

The problem here is that Schumer is "counting his chickens before they've hatched". This project can't move forward without tracks on the cutoff and reaching Scranton is decades away at best. An Amtrak interim president isnt going to be able to make any decisions on this before his time is up.

Combine no tracks in western NJ, incredibly slow running over NJT east of Dover and time spent on an engine change and this project is a no-go from the start. Usually I agree with some things Schumer says but now I think he doesnt really know all the facts before he speaks.

You'll have to pardon my skeptiseum here but......The last time the NYSDOT and Amtrak got together we got that wonderful
farce called "high speed" service with the infamous turbo's. They turned not one revenue mile and whats left is either holed up in Delaware or behind the soon to be closing Super Steel. That 10-12 mil "investment" got us what? Vital you say Chuck? To whom? He is famous for his bombastic statements of "fact". Has anybody looked at Bingo to PJ service to connect with
NJT who of course has service to the city from there? Which line , Bing to PJ or Bing to Scranton has less freight in the way? PJ of course. As aways its who pays and how much. Think you'll ever get that answer? Its not that I'm anti-rail its
that I'm pro reality.

I fully agree. And you better believe that once Schumer sees PA balking at adding one inch of passenger service in the state, he's gonna look to the Port Jervis route as a back up plan. Neither way is high speed or time competitive with cars or buses so its not gonna happen. You either have the slow route between Binghamton and Port Jervis or the slow route dodging the NJT mess east of Dover.

From Progressive railroading

New York senator calls on Amtrak to expand service
It’s been less than two weeks since Amtrak appointed Joseph Boardman interim president and chief executive officer, but one New York senator already is urging him to add service in the region.

Last week, Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) sent a letter to Boardman requesting that he consider expanding service from Scranton, Pa., to Binghamton, N.Y.

“The connection out of Binghamton through Scranton will provide a vital link for residents of the southern tier to New York City, and at the same time, profoundly impact economic development throughout this region,” Schumer wrote.

The senator long has advocated the New Jersey-Pennsylvania Lackawanna Cutoff Rail Restoration, a joint effort between Pennsylvania and New Jersey aimed at reestablishing commuter-rail service between Scranton and Hoboken, N.J. The Binghamton-Scranton line would connect with the Lackawanna Cutoff, linking New Jersey Transit lines serving New York City.