Route of the Phoebe Snow

PHOEBE was always scheduled via the Morristown side. The Lackawanna Limited was, at times, scheduled over the Boonton Line, I believe. If PHOEBE did go over the Boonton line it would have been an emergency situation. I really don't remember ever hearing of or seeing 3 or 6 over there.

I remember asking old-timers that question. As I remember, it was never done as a schedule. There was much more traffic opportunity at Newark, Birck Churck, and Summit versus just Patterson. In fact, I never saw it in a timetable.

The most dramatic off-routing took place after Hurricane Carol (I think that was the name) in 1954/55 when 3 & 6 were routed via the CNJ in Pennsylvania. I think it then returned as a Philipsburg, Washington, Netcong routing.

I think Tabor's book talks about this.

Hurricane Diane, 1955.

Yes, Dianne, 1955. Pics in LACKAWANNA MAGAZINE shows Miss Phoebe in Hazelton, PA on the LV! I believe she came down from Scranton on the Bloom to Coxton Yard and was handed off at Phillipsburg to run the Old Road. I have a RDG 19 order for a freight at H'brg which came down the NYC-Erie to Newberry Yard where the RDG took it to Allentown to CNJ to P'brg. It was certainly an interesting even.

I can never get enough of this topic. I spent many years living in both Summit and Gillette (Gladstone Br) and altough I now live in Vermont, the DLW will always be my "home" railroad. My grandfather, father and I all commuted the Morristown line to Hoboken, although I was too late for the big ferries.

My father took the Phoebe in June or July of 1959, en route to Philmont Scount Ranch in Cimmaron, NM. Cimmaron is near Taos. He shot much of the trip on 8mm (getting brittle), but not the eastern part of the trip. I have to guess he was conserving film. Now of course, it's the eastern section of that trip that is mostly gone.

Without the old guy around anymore to ask, are there any ideas as to what the rest of the routing, west of Buffalo, would have been in those days? Would one have been scheduled on rival Erie from Buffalo to Chicago? I'm not sure what cooperation was going on in these last years before the merger. Would it have been the Nickle Plate? Slightly off-topic, but any ideas as to the likely 1959 routing from Chicago to New Mexico?

Without the old guy around anymore to ask, are there any ideas as to what the rest of the routing, west of Buffalo, would have been in those days? Would one have been scheduled on rival Erie from Buffalo to Chicago? I'm not sure what cooperation was going on in these last years before the merger. Would it have been the Nickle Plate? Slightly off-topic, but any ideas as to the likely 1959 routing from Chicago to New Mexico?

The Phoebe Snow had a through sleeper that went to Chicago from Buffalo on the Nickel Plate. Taos, NM is not directly accessible by rail, but the Santa Fe is 40-50 miles from Raton or Lamy (with bus connection to Santa Fe, NM). By 1959 the narrow guage line of the Rio Grande near Taos was gone. So it is a safe bet he took a Santa Fe train Chicago-Raton (or Lamy/Santa Fe).

DLWDowntown wrote:I can never get enough of this topic. I spent many years living in both Summit and Gillette (Gladstone Br) and altough I now live in Vermont, the DLW will always be my "home" railroad. My grandfather, father and I all commuted the Morristown line to Hoboken, although I was too late for the big ferries.

My father took the Phoebe in June or July of 1959, en route to Philmont Scount Ranch in Cimmaron, NM. Cimmaron is near Taos. He shot much of the trip on 8mm (getting brittle), but not the eastern part of the trip. I have to guess he was conserving film. Now of course, it's the eastern section of that trip that is mostly gone.

Without the old guy around anymore to ask, are there any ideas as to what the rest of the routing, west of Buffalo, would have been in those days? Would one have been scheduled on rival Erie from Buffalo to Chicago? I'm not sure what cooperation was going on in these last years before the merger. Would it have been the Nickle Plate? Slightly off-topic, but any ideas as to the likely 1959 routing from Chicago to New Mexico?

Probably this was a special move rather than an individual's trip. Wasn't there a Jamboree out in NM that year? There were extra cars on the Phoebe added to NKP or NYC trains or extras at Buffalo or west of there.

Regular PHOEBE passengers could go thru to Chi of course on the NKP or even make changes on NKP or NYC for Detroit or St. Louis if the passenger wished. Other DL trains had Chi and Det sleepers.

I vaguely remember a couple of those scout moves. And IIRC, they were passed on #3 westbound to the NKP in Buffalo where they were switched to NKP #5 leaving Buffalo at 7:30pm and arriving in Chicago at 7:40 the following morning. How and where they got to another carrier from there I have no clue.

Thanks for the replies, guys.

It certainly could have been a special move. I neglected to mention that they boarded in Summit - it was just maybe 8 or 10 guys from Summit, total. I do think it was scheduled service from what I recall my dad saying about picking up the train there; he was telling me the story in the mid 80s as the two of us were headed from Summit to Hoboken. I think he was trying to make a point about having been able to get intercity rail service from his home town as a boy. (He tought history for years at Summit HS. As part of his annual class trips to Ellis Island, he would point out the JC CNJ terminal and explain that many Irish and Germans went there straight from Ellis Is. en route to the coal and steel industries in PA.).

For a Jamboree, yes, large numbers of Scouts descend on one location for about 10 days every four years or so. Philmont, on the other hand, sees a trickle of Scouts throughout July and August (made it there myself in 1989 and '91, by van from Madison. We even got to sleep at Air Force bases all the way across the country, back when there were still lots of B-52Ds and other eye candy at the SAC bases).

I have to check the attic at home and pull an old clipping from The Summit Herald showing the crew on the platform in Summit. If nothing else, it would make an interesting scan to post. I think it has a pretty good view of the pre-makeover Summit platform area. It might even show the approaching train - I have looked at it in 20 years. Wish I could have taken that ride.

It all jives: the dates, the Jamboree, the trip times, etc. There was one or two extra sleepers on Phoebe just for the Scouts from North Jersey towns; maybe a few other cars for PA and upstate NY towns were added later; but they were tagged on Phoebe who maintained her regular schedule.

DLWDowntown, I grew up in Gillette. Everyone in our family told time by the trains. In the 50s and early 60s I hung around that station quite a lot. This coming summer I plan to scan all my old photos and negatives. I'll keep this post in mind to place one or two Gillette station pix's.

calorosome wrote:Nope - the mainline was not moved when they built the Corning/Riverside bypass. The empty DL&W bridges/abutments are still there - one in Gibson, several in Corning/Riverside. You can spot them from I86.

I worked at Corning Glass for a few years.

Oh, and there are still traces of the original Erie ROW through south Corning (by Third St, east of the hospital) when the Erie ran down the middle of Dennison Parkway (nee old rt 17). Station was on Pine St, now a parking lot. Erie relocated the main line in the early 50s - saw a paper with a pic of an E8 on Pine St on the old line, wish I had saved that paper.

This is not correct. The rails WERE moved over onto the DL&W ROW from about one mile east of CP Corning (about where I86/RT17 pulls right alongside of the tracks) east to a point where there is a curve next to the golf course. This was all started the summer of 1982. They cleaned up the DL&W grade and built the bridge over Narrow's Creek in Gibson. This bridge does have additional abutments to the north that are no longer used. However, this is due to the fact that the DL&W was four (or more) tracks wide at this point until at least the mid 1950's. The DL&W had some sidings at this location. The abutments were left in place to serves as wing walls. The only other bridge need in this section was over Gordon’s Creek and there are no signs of the old structure(s).

The distance between the Erie and the DL&W was greater at this point than it was on Corning's north side. In fact, the Erie and the DL&W went under different spans of the (then) RT17 Bridge just as I86/RT17 and the line do today. On the Corning's north side, the DL&W abutments and bridges all were just to the north of the Erie giving the appearance of a four track main. As I have said, at Gibson they were separated by the same distance that separates the road and railroad today.

The tracks were not installed until the summer of 1983. For a very brief period, the view from the (then) RT17 Bridge was much the same as it would have been from 1952-1959. You had the still intact Erie and the newly installed DL&W sporting tracks once again. Obviously, this view was only available for a matter of weeks.

The curve at the east end of this realignment is interesting. The present alignment is the third for these tracks. Originally the Erie went straight across the river at this point and onto the pre 1952 alignment. You can see the ROW coming in from the river as you are eastbound on I86/RT17. Then it made the curve onto the 1952 relocation alignment. Now it curves onto the former DL&W ROW.

The Phoebe Snow never was scheduled to go through Paterson.
However; A long distance train No 47 was scheduled via the Boonton Line.
It went as far as Binghampton. Its eastbound counterpart went via the Morristown Line however based on the 1956 timetables.

Actually Number 1 was carded over the Boonton Line AND the Rockaway Branch...this train predated both 3 and 47!

The portion between Mt. Morris and Groveland was reactivated recently when American Motive Power began doing contract work in the former Foster Wheeler plant in Dansville. This also reactivated the Dansville & Mount Morris line as well. The portion between Mt. Morris and Greigsville is also in use as part of the Rochester Southern's G&W Subdivision as well.From Greigsville to Lancaster, it is all gone. Very little is left of the Lackawanna in New York State, unless you count the NYSW operated Syracuse and Utica branches and the Oswego Branch (CSX).