Route of the Phoebe Snow

Aside from the 25 mile stretch aka the Cutoff and Dearborn Station. Is the entire line from Hoboken-Chicago still able to have active rail service if let's say passenger service were to come back to service Chicago from Hoboken. Is the cutoff and the Dearborn Station areas the only places on the line where service cannot be restored? I would hope the entire line is still in good condition and still in use by other railroads if no longer double tracked and frequently used.

The railroad is almost entirely gone and there is no chance of it ever coming back. As far as I know, the Pheobe Snow was a Hoboken-Buffalo train.

well..the "Route of the Phoebe Snow" only went as far as Buffalo..not Chicago.
The Erie and the Erie Lackawanna both went to Chicago, but not the DL&W..

very little of the Lackawanna is still in place in NY state..the Erie routes fared much better than the Lackawanna after 1960.

im not sure how much of the DL&W is still in use between NEw York City and Scranton..but I can give you the entire current status between Scranton and Buffalo for the DL&W mainline:

From Scranton PA up to Binghamton NY the DL&W is mostly in place and in use..by D&H/CP.

From Binghamton west to Gang Mills (Corning area) the DL&W rails are all gone..mostly cleared away for the construction of route 17 in the late 60's/early 70's
even the ROW is wiped out in most places..

From Gang Mills to Wayland the DL&W is in use by the Bath & Hammondsport railroad. (under control of the Livonia, Avon & Lakeville)

then tracks torn up between Wayland and Groveland station yard.
no rails over Dansville hill.

Rails are in place, but not currently in use, between Groveland and Mount Morris..this is now the Dansville & Mount Morris RR (operated by G&W)

then a short stretch in use by the Genesee & Wyoming between Mount Morris and Greigsville.

no rails between Greigsville and Depew.

a short mile or so in use around Depew..

then torn up straight through to Buffalo...the DL&W is mostly dead in NY.

it survives in small seperated chunks..never to be a complete railroad again.
(and all these bits are now single-tracked)

The Erie lines fared much better in NY..much of the Erie is still in use all the way acoss the entire state. its the "Southern Tier Main"..in use by Susquehanna, NS, and WNY&P.

Scot

Except for the Cuba Cutoff which was demolished after ConRail including the huge trestles at Belmont and Fillmore.

West of Marion, Ohio, the Erie is about 98% gone-- removed in the 70s, with even the BALLAST salvaged and sold!!!

Big chunks missing in eastern Ohio, too.

Very few mainlines survived Conrail between Ohio and Chicago. The PRR and NYC cronies on Conrail's board made sure their mainlines remained.

There are three remantns of the Erie in the Midwest: the Spencerville and Elgin is poerated by RJ Corman between Lima and Glenmore, OH. JK Lines is a granger shortline that operates from a connection with CSX (?) in North Judson, IN. Another 10 miles of the former Erie main was torn up in the late '70s and relaid in the mid '80s as the Heritage RR. It serves a refinery in eastern IN, IIRC. There is a rumor about extending this line to reconnect it with the Spencerville and Elgin, but it is most likely bogus due to the modest traffic levels on both lines.

FWIW, Phoebe Snow could operate alonmg a portion of its final route right now between Scranton and Buffalo. EL passenger trains follwoed an ex-Erie routing west of Binghamton (including connections to Buffalo) after the DL&W main was placeed OOS near Dansville in 1963 and later torn up.

scottychaos wrote:well..the "Route of the Phoebe Snow" only went as far as Buffalo..not Chicago.
The Erie and the Erie Lackawanna both went to Chicago, but not the DL&W..

very little of the Lackawanna is still in place in NY state..the Erie routes fared much better than the Lackawanna after 1960.

im not sure how much of the DL&W is still in use between NEw York City and Scranton..but I can give you the entire current status between Scranton and Buffalo for the DL&W mainline:

From Scranton PA up to Binghamton NY the DL&W is mostly in place and in use..by D&H/CP.

From Binghamton west to Gang Mills (Corning area) the DL&W rails are all gone..mostly cleared away for the construction of route 17 in the late 60's/early 70's
even the ROW is wiped out in most places..

From Gang Mills to Wayland the DL&W is in use by the Bath & Hammondsport railroad. (under control of the Livonia, Avon & Lakeville)

then tracks torn up between Wayland and Groveland station yard.
no rails over Dansville hill.

Rails are in place, but not currently in use, between Groveland and Mount Morris..this is now the Dansville & Mount Morris RR (operated by G&W)

then a short stretch in use by the Genesee & Wyoming between Mount Morris and Greigsville.

no rails between Greigsville and Depew.

a short mile or so in use around Depew..

then torn up straight through to Buffalo...the DL&W is mostly dead in NY.

it survives in small seperated chunks..never to be a complete railroad again.
(and all these bits are now single-tracked)

The Erie lines fared much better in NY..much of the Erie is still in use all the way acoss the entire state. its the "Southern Tier Main"..in use by Susquehanna, NS, and WNY&P.

Scot

The mainline between Hoboken and Scranton, except for the Cutoff, is in use. Hoboken to Port Morris (and continuing on the old main to Hackettstown) is owned by NJ Transit and still in use for commuter trains and Slateford to Scranton is owned by PennDOT and operated by the Delaware Lackawanna Railway, a shortline in that region.

So theoretically the 1966 Route of the Phoebe Snow is intact from Delaware Water Gap, Pa to Buffalo.... Restore the ex-Erie 833, a couple diners and the Tavern Lounge Car and your set!! It is nice to dream isn't it!

Depends how much of a purist you are what remains of the "Route Of The Phoebe Snow", "The Road of the Anthracite".
Original DL&W broken between Port Morris and Slatford Jct.; from east Vestal to East Corning (ironicly the ROW from E. Corning thru Corning to RIverside is again DL&W while the Erie ROW is I86/NY17!); track from Painted Post to Wayland is in but single track shortline; broken from Wayland to Mt. Morris; shortline segmetents to Depew. Note: from west end of Binghamton to Vestal is single track spur as the "main" connects now with the former Erie main.

The EL "Route of Phoebe Snow" was via Hornell to Buffalo and still exists. At one point the Tavern Lounge cars went through to either Meadville or Youngstown and turned back not going to Chicago (therefore cannot be pure "Phoebe Snow" no matter what the timetable said).

As I said, it all depends on how much of a purist you are.

NJ Transit is considering restoring the cutoff for commuter service between East Stroudsburg (and potentially Scranton) and Hoboken/NYP. Peaople have floated around possible Amtrak service to Binghamton or even Buffalo or Chicago if the cutoff is restored by N.J. and Pa.

Before someone starts saying that Scranton is too far for commuter style coaches and service, keep in mind that the only other option would be driving in a cramped car, there are a lot of commuters to NY and Jersey in Lackawanna County, and that the 117 mile Montauk Line of the LIRR is successful and it uses commuter equipment.

henry6 wrote:ironicly the ROW from E. Corning thru Corning to RIverside is again DL&W while the Erie ROW is I86/NY17!

Possibly in Gibson by the golf course where the narrow stretch is next to the river, but west of Gibson you can spot abandoned double track bridges. The Erie and DL&W were neck to neck all the way to Riverside. The DL&W ROW was furthest from the river, abandoned bridges are furthest from the river, so the current tracks are on the Erie ROW. I explored that section (E. Corning to Riverside) back in 2000, none of the DL&W ROW is in use. The lot of the Erie Corning station is still there (station long gone), DL&W Corning station still stands but is owned by NYSEG and fenced off.

That day I explored those tracks, I parked my car near the Corning secondary. When I came back a train from Geneva was blocking my way to my car. I got chatting with the engineer (he started with PC working the old NYC north Corning yards) and he gave me a ride in the cab. You ain't heard nothing until you've been in the cab of a diesel backing a train of 50 loaded coal cars up a slight grade! Needless to say that was a looooong lunch break. You don't run into friendly engineers much anymore that offer a ride, esp post 9/11.

There's a bit of DL&W track still intact in Big Flats. It's a spur to service an Agway. A small pagoda station was still there in 2000 but in poor condition and in the process of being dismantled and moved by its owner, I don't know its current state. DL&W overpass bridges in Big Flats are still in place.

West of the Horseheads shopping complex is a side road with an old overpass over the DL&W ROW, it was never filled in.

henry6 wrote:track from Painted Post to Wayland is in but single track shortline

The DL&W ROW in Bath is buried under the I86/17 between the two highway overpasses. The shortline meanders onto the original Erie Wayland branch on that stretch.

Sometime around 1999-2000 I spotted an Amtrak eastbound in East Corning - not someting you see every day!!! I got a hold of Chuck Yungkurth, he got a picture of it in Binghamton. Amtrak was diverted there because of a wreck blocking the mainline.

Wasn't the whole NS track, nee CR, nee EL, moved from Erie ROW to DL&W ROW from East Corning to Riverside when I86/NY17 was built around Corning?

Nope - the mainline was not moved when they built the Corning/Riverside bypass. The empty DL&W bridges/abutments are still there - one in Gibson, several in Corning/Riverside. You can spot them from I86.

I worked at Corning Glass for a few years.

Oh, and there are still traces of the original Erie ROW through south Corning (by Third St, east of the hospital) when the Erie ran down the middle of Dennison Parkway (nee old rt 17). Station was on Pine St, now a parking lot. Erie relocated the main line in the early 50s - saw a paper with a pic of an E8 on Pine St on the old line, wish I had saved that paper.

I have a question...
I saw a DLW map from the 50's or so, and I was wondering...
Did the Pheobe Snow ever go through Paterson instead of Newark? If it did, was it often?