Delaware and Raritan River Railroad-General Discussion

Just curious, for those that don't think the sand trains are ever gonna return, why does NJSL and Clayton keep maintaining that stretch of track?

Maybe there is some "keeping hope alive" on Clayton's part. After all it's all deductible as business expense so costs very little. And never say never. It's not gonna happen soon, or they would be working Lakewood - Lakehurst, and probably not in my lifetime, but never is forever.

JohnFromJersey wrote:Just curious, for those that don't think the sand trains are ever gonna return, why does NJSL and Clayton keep maintaining that stretch of track?

1. The loop track was/has not been replaced.
2. Sand gets loaded in covered hoppers; you need some sort of conveyor system to load them from the top.
3. Nothing new or updated was built in Lakehurst, all they did was renew what was already there. When Conrail reconfigured their side of Lakehurst there needs to be some new Contruction between Union Ave and Rt 70 to make a true interchange on the NJCL side.
4. NJSL got somewhere near $9 million over two grants nearly 10 years ago, keeping what they did in halfway decent shape probably won't raise some eyebrows, and they probably wouldn't be able to get that much in the future.
5. Having your own railroad to your pit adds value to the company.
6. The only person(s) to ever publicly utter the word " Sand Train" and "Clayton" in the same sentence had nothing to do with either.

There are more, I'm sure.

@BattleshipNJ:

Greatly appreciated, great pics.

CharlieL wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:19 pm Maybe there is some "keeping hope alive" on Clayton's part. After all it's all deductible as business expense so costs very little. And never say never. It's not gonna happen soon, or they would be working Lakewood - Lakehurst, and probably not in my lifetime, but never is forever.

I guess we will see what happens when they finish the FIT-SOUS connection. If they were gonna do Lakewood-Lakehurst, I'd imagine they would wait until the main project that allows for them to have more and heavier freight to appear is done first.

CR7876 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:32 pm 1. The loop track was/has not been replaced.
2. Sand gets loaded in covered hoppers; you need some sort of conveyor system to load them from the top.
3. Nothing new or updated was built in Lakehurst, all they did was renew what was already there. When Conrail reconfigured their side of Lakehurst there needs to be some new Contruction between Union Ave and Rt 70 to make a true interchange on the NJCL side.
4. NJSL got somewhere near $9 million over two grants nearly 10 years ago, keeping what they did in halfway decent shape probably won't raise some eyebrows, and they probably wouldn't be able to get that much in the future.
5. Having your own railroad to your pit adds value to the company.
6. The only person(s) to ever publicly utter the word " Sand Train" and "Clayton" in the same sentence had nothing to do with either.

There are more, I'm sure.

1. Very true, good point.
2. Does it have to be in covered hoppers? I know back when sand trains were a thing, they usually were uncovered open hoppers.
3. Another good point, unless they would drop the cars off on the switch for the TRIT
4. How did they even get that much money anyway for the line if nothing is/was gonna happen?
5. Very true, but the railroad is technically not connected to the national freight network, I don't see why you would wanna add useless value to your company/property like that, especially if it will increase your property taxes or whatever and you can't use what adds the extra value
6. Who was that person?

Its messy, but I hope I put this in the right order:

1. https://dcms-external.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... 225719.PDF - NJCL's operation exemption. No mention of Sand 9-10-09
2. https://dcms-external.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... 225796.PDF - Eric Strohmeyer and James Riffin in CONSOLIDATED RAIL CORPORATION - ABANDONMENT EXEMPTION -
IN HUDSON COUNTY, NJ. See paragraph 47. 9-30-09 First mention of Sand
3. https://dcms-external.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... 225809.pdf - NJCL lawyers 10-1-09
4. https://dcms-external.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... 225850.PDF - 10-9-09
5. https://dcms-external.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... 225854.PDF - NJSL lawyer basically saying bugger off 10-09-09
6. https://dcms-external.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... 225871.pdf - 10-14-09
7. https://dcms-external.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... 227577.PDF - Eric Strohmeyer and James Riffin reiterate the sand, and imply that if we win our fight against Conrail ( which is their goal in all of this) We will have a place for the sand. 10-15-09
8. https://dcms-external.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... 225897.PDF - Clayton itself 10-20-09

I've always seen sand (for fracking operations in PA) moved in 2 bay (short) covered hoppers. I understand this is because because wet sand is about 500 lbs heavier per cubic yard than dry sand and does not flow as smoothly.

CharlieL wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:19 pm Maybe there is some "keeping hope alive" on Clayton's part. After all it's all deductible as business expense so costs very little. And never say never. It's not gonna happen soon, or they would be working Lakewood - Lakehurst, and probably not in my lifetime, but never is forever.

The federal corporate income tax rate is 21%. That means that for every thousand dollars Clayton spends on track maintenance, Clayton saves only $210 in federal tax, the other $790 is gone forever. It is irrational to spend money only because of the tax deduction, so Clayton must have an expectation of utilizing sand trains in the foreseeable future.

I also believe someone posted on here that Clayton is paying over 13k in property taxes annually on their line.

And just because sand wasn’t explicitly mentioned doesn’t mean it’s not for sand. What else are they gonna haul? Pumpkins?

So, $15K a year? About 1/5 the loaded rate for an employee (or less). Worth it to keep their options open

Good and close sources have informed and convinced me that the sand trains will be ready to run once the rail segment from Lakewood to Lakehurst is cleared. Then NJSL will begin to operate. Their equipment, which has been acquired, will be able to move the 13 miles from Lakehurst to Woodmansie. That segment is constantly observed and maintained. Please keep away from rumors--Thank you.

Then I say C&D should get started on it soon.

CharlieL wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 7:18 pm So, $15K a year? About 1/5 the loaded rate for an employee (or less). Worth it to keep their options open

I guess, but I still wouldn't see a point for Clayton to maintain 13 miles of track for no reason, even if it's "reasonably" cheap. Not to mention, that is 13 miles of track that is a liability and probably requires some sort of insurance that definitely isn't free or very cheap

David wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:33 am Good and close sources have informed and convinced me that the sand trains will be ready to run once the rail segment from Lakewood to Lakehurst is cleared. Then NJSL will begin to operate. Their equipment, which has been acquired, will be able to move the 13 miles from Lakehurst to Woodmansie. That segment is constantly observed and maintained. Please keep away from rumors--Thank you.

Interesting to know. Do these sources know if the sand trains would be coming soon in say, June of this year like a rumor I heard on a different forum?

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:38 am Then I say C&D should get started on it soon.

I'd imagine whatever goes over that section of track can't move into the FIT-SOUS connection is done. It's more critical for DRRR/C&D to focus on getting Freehold-Farmingdale done IMO, and with the speed their going with that, I'm sure they could get Lakewood-Lakehurst done in a couple weeks or less.

Well...IDK if sand trains are goingto run or not....but the speculation here, on both sides is somewhat entertaining.

As for other topics here:
1. If there taxes for the track property is 13K a year....thats NOTHING.

2. Mostly likely the reason that there is ROW maintenance, is bc SOMEONE ELSE ID PAYING FOR IT. Like the state, for instance. State contracts are not just to "get a project done", but to provide jobs..so if the contract is let, the state pays it cause a) its a contract, and b) its providing jobs, even if its just a waste of energy for nothing.
Wasnt a grade crossing in the TRIT repaired not too long ago.? Stop being so surprised that things get done for no apparent reason.

pdtrains wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 1:56 am 2. Mostly likely the reason that there is ROW maintenance, is bc SOMEONE ELSE ID PAYING FOR IT. Like the state, for instance. State contracts are not just to "get a project done", but to provide jobs..so if the contract is let, the state pays it cause a) its a contract, and b) its providing jobs, even if its just a waste of energy for nothing.
Wasnt a grade crossing in the TRIT repaired not too long ago.? Stop being so surprised that things get done for no apparent reason.

If the state was paying for the maintenance of the Clayton/NJSL track, we would have a public record of it. IIRC, there has been no information given out by the state in regards to money given to Clayton/NJSL, like back when the state gave them grants nearly ten years ago to fix and upgrade that stretch of tracks. I could be wrong, there could be documentation about NJ continuing to give NJSL/Clayton money to this day to maintain that stretch of tracks, but I seriously doubt it, and think it is most likely coming out of their pockets.

As for crossings, no matter if the track is publicly owned or privately owned, inactive or active, crossings are always done by the government since it's a government road crossing the tracks.