Amtrak Profit Center- Auto Train

I don't know why everyone is stuck on matching the current consist allocation and time traveled. Absent expanding the Sanford facility, you would need to have an arrival and departure window at least 6 hours opposed to the current operation.

In theory, you could have a train leaving from a New Jersey departure point about the same time the Lorton section is departing, and not have any interference in Sanford because it wouldn't be getting there until after the northbound Lorton section has departed.

If the equipment was the same with a total of five train sets, you could always have the Northbound Lorton section leaving on time and reuse a delayed southbound Lorton section to serve the next New Jersey Section...

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eolesen wrote: ↑Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:22 pm I don't know why everyone is stuck on matching the current consist allocation and time traveled. Absent expanding the Sanford facility, you would need to have an arrival and departure window at least 6 hours opposed to the current operation.

In theory, you could have a train leaving from a New Jersey departure point about the same time the Lorton section is departing, and not have any interference in Sanford because it wouldn't be getting there until after the northbound Lorton section has departed.

If the equipment was the same with a total of five train sets, you could always have the Northbound Lorton section leaving on time and reuse a delayed southbound Lorton section to serve the next New Jersey Section...

6 hours displaced from a 10 am arrival and a 5 pm departure would be either a
a) 3 am arrival with a 10 am departure or
b) 5 pm arrival with a midnight departure.
Really, do you really expect families in cars driving in the wee hours of the morning to get to and from the stations?
Do you allow your kids to stay up past midnight in the car?

As it is, the Auto Trains are in the stations turning around consuming 7 hours, 10 am to 5 pm. That allows switching cars, cleaning cars, loading and unloading autoracks in an organized manner, without a lot of standby rolling stock.

With two arriving and departing trains a day, that's 14 hours trains are in the station turning around. I do not care how you arrange those 14 hours, getting families in cars to and from the stations will cause families to be driving in the pre-dawn or past midnight hours. You can not avoid that situtation. Earth, Moon, and the Sun, the clock, does not allow it!

electricron wrote: ↑Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:10 pm 6 hours displaced from a 10 am arrival and a 5 pm departure would be either a
a) 3 am arrival with a 10 am departure or
b) 5 pm arrival with a midnight departure.

Really, do you really expect families in cars driving in the wee hours of the morning to get to and from the stations?
Do you allow your kids to stay up past midnight in the car?

First, it's not only families that use the Auto Train. There are all types that are using the current service.
And in fact, some of these hours potentially work better if you're driving in from New England or further away. Leave after school or even work, drive through the late evening, and then board. If anything that's a bonus for some.

As for your second question: "Yes" (actually one of my fondest memories is driving on backroads of Nebraska with my teen son. But I assume you mean younger, and again the answer is yes. For one, kids are adaptable. For another, again they can be sleeping on the way, and depending on the age, often are easier to move from car to train when they're 1/2 awake.

So I don't see either of those showstoppers. They might limit your market, but certainly not eliminate it.

Greg Moore wrote: ↑Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:12 pm So I don't see either of those showstoppers. They might limit your market, but certainly not eliminate it.

You wish to invest two additional trains a day for a "limited market" service. Why? That limited market will probably kill any potential profits those trains would ever make.
When a train arrives and departs a city affects ridership data significiantly. Cities visited at different time of the day by the same train.
Memphis, population 633,000 is visited by the City of New Orleans at 0640 sb, and 2310 nb, sees 61,600 passengers yearly.
Jackson, population 153,000 is visited by the City of New Orleans at 1120 sb and 1814 nb, sees 74,500 passengers yearly.

So a city one quarter the size of another on the same train gets nearly 10% better ridership, an equivalent 410% better ridership per population. Yes, time of day does matter significantly.

electricron wrote:
6 hours displaced from a 10 am arrival and a 5 pm departure would be either a
a) 3 am arrival with a 10 am departure or
b) 5 pm arrival with a midnight departure.

Or... a 5-8pm arrival and an 7-10am departure? If you can get to the airport for a morning departure, AT should be easier.

electricron wrote: Really, do you really expect families in cars driving in the wee hours of the morning to get to and from the stations?
Do you allow your kids to stay up past midnight in the car?

Yup. Hardly a revolutionary idea to have to wake up before sunrise... farmers have done that for centuries.

As a family brought up on long road trips, my wife and I have been known to push the limit and do things like Houston or Orlando to Chicago in a straight shot. Yellowstone in two driving days? Piece of cake.

We've routinely left on long trips at 5am to avoid Chicago traffic. The kids would go to bed in their traveling clothes, we'd wake them up when it was time to roll, and they'd fall asleep as soon as they were in the truck or van...

Then again, they used to get on the school bus between 6:30 and 6:50in the morning.

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electricron wrote:

Greg Moore wrote: ↑Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:12 pm So I don't see either of those showstoppers. They might limit your market, but certainly not eliminate it.

You wish to invest two additional trains a day for a "limited market" service. Why? That limited market will probably kill any potential profits those trains would ever make.
When a train arrives and departs a city affects ridership data significiantly. Cities visited at different time of the day by the same train.
Memphis, population 633,000 is visited by the City of New Orleans at 0640 sb, and 2310 nb, sees 61,600 passengers yearly.
Jackson, population 153,000 is visited by the City of New Orleans at 1120 sb and 1814 nb, sees 74,500 passengers yearly.

So a city one quarter the size of another on the same train gets nearly 10% better ridership, an equivalent 410% better ridership per population. Yes, time of day does matter significantly.

Two extra sections of Autotrain at 70% LF would outperform just about every other LD in the network...

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How have track speeds changed in 50 years? How about autorack clearance - there are lots of places in the country that get autoracks, right? And every year a very few clearance issues are addressed.

Imagine the freight railroad(s) and Amtrak working together to develop a new auto train market, either because it is profitable or offset by freight grants/upgrades. Probably need freight cooperation to secure good terminal yards. Imagine robotic handlers loading/unloading the automobiles faster than any human. Throw in some fast-freight service and you could have something iconic.

How about teaming up with one of the freight company's, There is a rail yard in Quonset Point RI. Plenty of room for loading cars and have them hauled by freight and have Amtrak load people and have these meet somewhere in Florida. no need to compete when you can join up. Freight will be much happier if there getting a piece of the pie. much lower cost to get up and running as you will not have to buy new rail cars. and this if successful could be repeated in other parts of the country. Chicago, Detroit

The big thing here is I can see a northern NYC/Boston endpoint going all the way down to Florida, as you catch vacation and holiday travel. I can't see that for any other pairing that doesn't have a tourist destination, and I'd need a study for those non-Florida destinations.

eolesen wrote: ↑Sun Aug 28, 2022 11:17 pm [Or... a 5-8pm arrival and an 7-10am departure? If you can get to the airport for a morning departure, AT should be easier.

Yup. Hardly a revolutionary idea to have to wake up before sunrise... farmers have done that for centuries.

As a family brought up on long road trips, my wife and I have been known to push the limit and do things like Houston or Orlando to Chicago in a straight shot. Yellowstone in two driving days? Piece of cake.

We've routinely left on long trips at 5am to avoid Chicago traffic. The kids would go to bed in their traveling clothes, we'd wake them up when it was time to roll, and they'd fall asleep as soon as they were in the truck or van...

Then again, they used to get on the school bus between 6:30 and 6:50in the morning.

Families will not be driving an hour or so to get to and from the local large airport, they could be driving 3,4,5 possibly 6 hours or more to get to the Auto Train station.
It is not the same quick trip.

I see no reason why a departure time from the NYC area (let's say Newark?) wouldn't be comparable to that for Lorton. The constraint is at Sanford, not up north.

It's roughly 240 miles from Newark to Lorton. Assuming an average track speed of 40 mph (hardly inconceivable for a double track freight-only main or even the NEC), that's roughly six hours. Exactly the offset I was proposing.

electricron wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:34 pm

eolesen wrote: ↑Sun Aug 28, 2022 11:17 pm [Or... a 5-8pm arrival and an 7-10am departure? If you can get to the airport for a morning departure, AT should be easier.

Yup. Hardly a revolutionary idea to have to wake up before sunrise... farmers have done that for centuries.

As a family brought up on long road trips, my wife and I have been known to push the limit and do things like Houston or Orlando to Chicago in a straight shot. Yellowstone in two driving days? Piece of cake.

We've routinely left on long trips at 5am to avoid Chicago traffic. The kids would go to bed in their traveling clothes, we'd wake them up when it was time to roll, and they'd fall asleep as soon as they were in the truck or van...

Then again, they used to get on the school bus between 6:30 and 6:50in the morning.

Families will not be driving an hour or so to get to and from the local large airport, they could be driving 3,4,5 possibly 6 hours or more to get to the Auto Train station.
It is not the same quick trip.

You're right. It's far easier to get your kids to nap for a 3-6 hour trip than it is for a 1 hour trip.

If your lucky . My eight year old boy decided to count the trucks on our last nite trip. At lest it kept me awake driving.

If you cannot convince me of the viability of your extended Auto Train, how will you ever convince Amtrak??????
You need better arguments.

It's not an extension. It's an expansion. If Amtrak were a customer or profit driven organization, they'd have already looked at this. But they aren't.