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Return of Daily LD Service

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by electricron
 
MattW wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 7:31 am So basically, "it goes nowhere so we shouldn't expand it to actually go somewhere?" I see this all the time around Atlanta talking about expanding MARTA: "MARTA is useless, it goes nowhere!" "So let's spend money to make it go somewhere" "NO! Didn't you hear me? It GOES NOWHERE!!!"
Where did that come from?
Amtrak has been around 50 years, getting far more than it's market share of the USDOT budget all of those 50 years, and still has not increased its market share even up to 0.2%.

In last year's regular DOT budget, pre pandemic extra funding, Amtrak received around $936 millions of the total USDOT budget of $84 billion, around 1%.
https://www.transportation.gov/sites/do ... 040519.pdf
That's 10 times more than its market share and with Trump's budget, not what Congress eventually passed, and not what was added later with the supplemental post pandemic budgets.
I get it, if you need to cook an omelette you have to break some eggs. If you want a national passenger rail service, let's make it viable and healthy. What we have after 50 years is an unhealthy, unviable national passenger rail service not even picking up its own weight. We debate every year what should be done with it because it is ill. Just about everyone for the last 50 years think the cure to make it healthy is to have faster trains, but few plans exist to make the trains go faster.

As for the nowhere comment, huh? Per Amtrak's web site, it connects over 500 cities and towns across the USA directly, topping 81% of the total US population. Therefore, Amtrak should be able to satisfy 81% of the intercity traffic, could achieve up to 81% market share with the cities it serves today. Yet, its market share is just 0.1%.

The problem is not that it goes nowhere; the problem is that almost everywhere it goes it does so poorly.

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by west point
 
MattW wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 7:31 am
electricron wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 10:38 am
So basically, "it goes nowhere so we shouldn't expand it to actually go somewhere?" I see this all the time around Atlanta talking about expanding MARTA: "MARTA is useless, it goes nowhere!" "So let's spend money to make it go somewhere" "NO! Didn't you hear me? It GOES NOWHERE!!!"
Hope this is sarcasm. Atlanta airport, downtown, 400 corridor ???

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by MattW
 
Getting way off topic from LDs, but I'll give one final response on MARTA (detailed response to electricron will be later). Yes, that's what you hear from the suburbanites "MARTA goes nowhere." As I pointed out elsewhere recently, it's not that it "goes" nowhere, it's that it "comes from" nowhere. Many of the places MARTA runs are not places, that until recently, had a lot of people living there. So even though the rail went to the employment centers, it didn't also go to the residential centers. To an extent it was a valid complaint, and the system still doesn't serve the bulk of commuters to and around Atlanta despite the recent explosion of residential development along some MARTA rail corridors. They're clean-sheeting the bus system (supposedly) so maybe that will increase connectivity from residential areas to the rail system.

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Observed @ MP 18:

#3(27); still tri weekly

2 P-42
3 Sleepers
Diner
Lounge
2 Coach
Coach-Bagg
DH Surfliner Coach

"more or less" OT

#5 (27) restored Daily frequency

2 P-42
V-Bagg
T-Dorm
2 Sleepers
Diner
Lounge
2 Coaches

55 ML

#3 was ahead of #5; think #3 has several stops to GBB that #5 doesn't make. Oh well "late trains just get later".

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by justalurker66
 
electricron wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 8:17 amand still has not increased its market share even up to 0.2%.
Market share of passenger miles? 500 destinations are good (I have not audited the list to see how many of those are bus links) but 5000 public airports and many more destinations reachable by roads help the other methods reach more people. Michigan Services Chicago to Detroit is a dozen trains ... compared to 144 average airline flights per day. More locations and more frequencies would help raise that "passenger miles" number.

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by wigwagfan
 
electricron wrote:Per Amtrak's web site, it connects over 500 cities and towns across the USA directly, topping 81% of the total US population...The problem is not that it goes nowhere; the problem is that almost everywhere it goes it does so poorly.
The classic "quantity, not quality" argument. Sure Amtrak serves 500 "cities". Greyhound serves 2,400 "destinations" - does that mean Greyhound is five times better than Amtrak because it serves five times more destinations?

I don't care how many destinations Amtrak (or Greyhound, or Delta, or United, or Uncle Joe's Transport Corporation) serves. It has to serve me well, or it's not used. I'm not going to make my best friend trundle from outside of Spokane to downtown Spokane at dark oh-thirty in a very bad part of downtown to pick me up on the once-a-day from Portland for $20 more than Alaska that can get me there at a reasonable time of day (not to mention, quite a few miles closer to her home.) What good is downtown to downtown service when I live in the suburbs and need to get to the suburbs of Seattle, meaning an hour or more on local transit (often with multiple transfers) on top of a trip that is already 90 minutes slower than I-5 (even at rush hour), and overshoots my destination requiring a backtrack? Or, the dozens and dozens of destinations I want to go, but Amtrak simply doesn't go at all?

The problem with Amtrak is it tries to market itself as something for everybody, when it clearly cannot be by its own definition; and instead of trying to focus on what it does best, it tries to make everybody happy - and fails miserably at that. There's so many opportunities for rail in this country but we're squandering it, and throwing more money at the problem without addressing the problem doesn't fix the problem. It just throws good money after bad.

Meanwhile Amtrak's "high demand" long distance service, according to Amtrak's own statistics, has reduced its long distance load factor from 50% down to around 30%, even with reduced capacity and frequency. I guess that the increased demand really doesn't exist, unless Amtrak is cooking its books to make its performance seem worse than it really is.

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by STrRedWolf
 
wigwagfan wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 10:10 pm Meanwhile Amtrak's "high demand" long distance service, according to Amtrak's own statistics, has reduced its long distance load factor from 50% down to around 30%, even with reduced capacity and frequency. I guess that the increased demand really doesn't exist, unless Amtrak is cooking its books to make its performance seem worse than it really is.
...or they factored in the COVID-19 limitations into that number.

We don't know how they calculate those numbers.

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by electricron
 
STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 6:59 am ...or they factored in the COVID-19 limitations into that number.
We don't know how they calculate those numbers.
That's why I have avoided using post pandemic data, and why I will continue to do so. :innocent:
But mark my words, the very people who say it is unfair to use FY2020 and FY2021 ridership data because of the pandemic ridership hit will be the first to include them when stating how large the ridership rises over the next few years, using these data as the low starting point with future ridership growth.. They will not see how unfair that will be a few years from now.

Much like global warmers like to start present heat up rates from the mini ice age from the 1950s and ignoring the earlier heat wave that caused the dust bowl from the 1930s. Partisans will always look for the data sets that reinforces their point of view in the best light possible. That's life, but it is just as unfair.

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by justalurker66
 
electricron wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 8:36 amPartisans will always look for the data sets that reinforces their point of view in the best light possible. That's life, but it is just as unfair.
I'll consider that a confession. :-D

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by jonnhrr
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 4:06 pm Observed @ MP 18:

#3(27); still tri weekly

2 P-42
3 Sleepers
Diner
Lounge
2 Coach
Coach-Bagg
DH Surfliner Coach

"more or less" OT

#5 (27) restored Daily frequency

2 P-42
V-Bagg
T-Dorm
2 Sleepers
Diner
Lounge
2 Coaches

55 ML

#3 was ahead of #5; think #3 has several stops to GBB that #5 doesn't make. Oh well "late trains just get later".
Only one stop, Mendota IL is served by #3 and not #5

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by lordsigma12345
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:21 am I'm all in favor of the San Joaquin and Surfliner services; not so with the Coast Starlight (although a locally funded "replacement Coast Daylight" Surfliner extension serving San Francisco would be amenable).
The coast starlight isn’t likely going anywhere, but I do think remuneration related to long distance service should of part of the next reauthorization as part of on time performance. I think a more appropriate market based remuneration for class Is is in order and would probably entice the carriers to give the trains better dispatching if it was worth their while. I do think it should be performance based in that if they keep the trains on schedule most of the time the renumeration would be more generous than if they do not.

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by John_Perkowski
 
electricron wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 8:17 am is just 0.1%.

The problem is not that it goes nowhere; the problem is that almost everywhere it goes it does so poorly.
On time percentage sucks
Food service sucks
Beverage service sucks
Rate of advance sucks
WiFi sucks

Amtrak relies on its statutory demand process for time on the railroads, long after it should not need that.

If Amtrak wants a greater share of travelers choice, it must act like it wants it.

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by Rockingham Racer
 
I've always thought their beverage service was quite good. I just ask the SCA for a bucket of ice for my roomette, and I take it from there. :-D

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by John_Perkowski
 
One is the beverage list from Pullman, the othe from the Oo’s MOUNTAINEER…
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Re: Return of Daily LD Service

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Observed (from a distance):
#5(30)

Usual eight car consist.

This is the final #5-6 - Zephyr - to depart on a restored Daily frequency. #6(30) is reported to be on its way as well.

This week #3-4, Chief, returns to Daily frequency. First restored #3 will be #3(1).
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