• A proposal to have Greyhound merged in with Amtrak, for land transportation integration

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by scratchyX1
 
http://urbanplacesandspaces.blogspot.co ... art-1.html
Greyhound's acquisition would be a great opportunity to integrate the inter-city transit network into a more seamless system. If Amtrak were truly visionary and about regional and national transit, not just railroad passenger service, it would make sense to merge the companies, with the aim of creating the kind of national transit system I envision (which used to exist anyway, through the combination of the various railroad passenger services and their interconnections, complemented by bus services from Greyhound and Trailways--national providers, and local and regional providers).

But unfortunately it's a stretch. Note that this is a "Transformational Projects Action Plan" concept at a massive scale. Sadly, I don't think either the federal government generally or Amtrak specifically have within them the ability to seize such an opportunity. The federal government is not known for its innovativeness and entrepreneurship although there are plenty of examples when it has done just that.

Amtrak was set up to be a "maintainer" of rail service, basically as a way to offload the expense of passenger service from freight-focused railroads increasingly in financial trouble, with a mandate for managed decline, complicated by difficult budget issues and political maneuvering within Congress, not to mention lobbying by private transportation organizations, especially airlines, to keep it uncompetitive ("Amtrak 2035 Map: Hopes and Challenges," Railway Age).
This person has proposed that greyhound , which is on market, be acquired and merged into Amtrak, for providing seamless

Greyhound's owner would like to sell. The media reports that First Group, the UK transit operator that tried to make a go of it in the US through three divisions: school transportation; transit agency service operation; and Greyhound; has sold its bus and transit division and wants to sell Greyhound, but has no takers ("FirstGroup sells bulk of US transport business in $4bn deal," Guardian).
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:52 am How profitable is Greyhound? Is it making money? Losing money?

Does the law Amtrak was formed under allow for such a merger?
Mr Wolf;

1) Apparently, "not very".

2) I'd say yes; look at the non-transportation Real Estate ventures around NY, Phila, and Chicago Amtrak has formed subsidiaries in which to engage.

Such an acquisition would "ease" a phase out of the LD's - something that was supposed to start 45 years ago - by having scheduled substitute surface transportation under Amtrak's control.
  by NRGeep
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:10 am

Such an acquisition would "ease" a phase out of the LD's - something that was supposed to start 45 years ago - by having scheduled substitute surface transportation under Amtrak's control.
And the trackless hounds would have sleepers, a cafe and legroom?
  by Ken W2KB
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:10 am
STrRedWolf wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:52 am How profitable is Greyhound? Is it making money? Losing money?

Does the law Amtrak was formed under allow for such a merger?
Mr Wolf;

1) Apparently, "not very".

2) I'd say yes; look at the non-transportation Real Estate ventures around NY, Phila, and Chicago Amtrak has formed subsidiaries in which to engage.

Such an acquisition would "ease" a phase out of the LD's - something that was supposed to start 45 years ago - by having scheduled substitute surface transportation under Amtrak's control.
My recollection is that the legislation forming NRPC d/b/a Amtrak states that NRPC has all the powers of a for-profit corporation incorporated in the District of Columbia. Thus, like any other business corporation, it can engage in any legal business venture. Amtrak could form or acquire airlines, bus companies, and non-transportation businesses of any kind. That said, given Amtrak's financial status, the funds from such would have to be provided by Congress which is a de facto limitation.
  by David Benton
 
I have wondered why there has not been more call for an "Ambus", particularly from communities that have lost their bus service.
With the provision of a network , the LD trains would gain ridership not lose it .
  by STrRedWolf
 
David Benton wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:26 pm I have wondered why there has not been more call for an "Ambus", particularly from communities that have lost their bus service.
With the provision of a network , the LD trains would gain ridership not lose it .
It would definitely be more feeder service to the trains... but currently not a good idea if you don't have the money and what money you do have has strings attached.
  by wigwagfan
 
NRGeep wrote:And the trackless hounds would have sleepers, a cafe and legroom?
I had no idea that a passenger train - or any mode of transport - was required to have those three items.

Regardless, buses can have amenities that would replace the cafe (onboard coffee and snacks), and the last few BoltBuses I have ridden had far more legroom than the Amtrak Cascades Talgo trainsets. Not to mention fully functioning at-seat power, much larger windows, a more comfortable ride, and wireless internet that worked far better and for 100% of the trip distance.

AmBus should have happened decades ago. And, frankly, Amtrak's strongest supporters should be the loudest and most vocal supporters of the proposal, because fighting against it would undermine every single argument for maintaining the Long Distance network. You can't say Amtrak is an essential mode of transport for hundreds of communities with no other option, while saying that Greyhound is unessential and expendable and the thousands of communities served only by Greyhound are unworthy of any intercity transportation options.
  by wigwagfan
 
S1f3432 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:24 pm Oh, Great! We can have a repeat of National Cities Lines al over again.
In no way, shape or form. Unless AmBus decides to mandate that all new bus purchases be made by General Motors (who hasn't made a new bus in almost 40 years, nor has the ability to do so as it has sold off every asset that could be used for said ability), was a jointly owned holding of GM, Standard Oil (which doesn't exist) and Firestone (now owned by a Japanese corporation) - the proposal would be for AmBus to be a subsidiary of the taxpayer-owned Amtrak, nor only owned a small number of operating companies scattered about but hardly a national monopoly (maybe if Amtrak took over a number of Trailways franchisees and then used those franchisees to replace unprofitable short-distance trains).
  by eolesen
 
Besides taking the marginal existing routes and shifting to a public bus option, it's also a way to start out some of these questionable new corridors.

Chicago-Rockford comes to mind, given the startup costs involved with signaling the line, adding PTC, and adding the crossovers & connecting tracks between the two lines to be used

Montana's push to revive the North Coast Hiawatha would be much easier started as a bus service, and if there was patronage, you have a business case to upgrade it to rail.
  by scratchyX1
 
eolesen wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:19 am Besides taking the marginal existing routes and shifting to a public bus option, it's also a way to start out some of these questionable new corridors.

Chicago-Rockford comes to mind, given the startup costs involved with signaling the line, adding PTC, and adding the crossovers & connecting tracks between the two lines to be used

Montana's push to revive the North Coast Hiawatha would be much easier started as a bus service, and if there was patronage, you have a business case to upgrade it to rail.
Thruway bus already exists. So why not start with buses for some proposed routes, to prove there is a demand, and then
go to states/congress with "it's desired, help us negotiate with freight carrier so these can run at least at 79MPH".
  by jonnhrr
 
scratchyX1 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:25 am
eolesen wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:19 am Besides taking the marginal existing routes and shifting to a public bus option, it's also a way to start out some of these questionable new corridors.

Chicago-Rockford comes to mind, given the startup costs involved with signaling the line, adding PTC, and adding the crossovers & connecting tracks between the two lines to be used

Montana's push to revive the North Coast Hiawatha would be much easier started as a bus service, and if there was patronage, you have a business case to upgrade it to rail.
Thruway bus already exists. So why not start with buses for some proposed routes, to prove there is a demand, and then
go to states/congress with "it's desired, help us negotiate with freight carrier so these can run at least at 79MPH".
Doesn't Thruway bus involve Amtrak contracting with a bus company to actually provide the service (might even be Greyhound)? This would be a different situation where Amtrak would have to actually run the buses itself.

Jon