• Amtrak CEO Open Letter to Congress

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by David Benton
 
"no results to date"
The new administration has been in office for 12 days ???
"Do you really believe within the next 10 years we will actually see a foot of additional high speed rail tracks operating with it? Or any new cities added to Amtrak's national network?"
Yes , I do .I expect CASHR will have at least 1/2 its system running , hopefully all of it .
Depending on your interpretation of High(er) speed, I expect There to be progress in the South East , most likely Virginia and North Carolina.
Its not hard to see America needs to add a zero to the left of the decimal point on this , maybe even 2. I am expecting Biden to add a .5 .
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Benton, just because your gal did what she needed to and brought COVID quickly under control - and in a free and democratic society to boot, does not mean it happens in the divided and polarized society we presently have "over here".

Joe is sincerely trying to reach out to the other guys; after all, he was "one of 'em" for some thirty years. But, there is a long gap between the $1.9T of COVID relief he wants and the $600B the Republican leadership will offer him. Yes, at this very moment, assuming that Chuck and Nancy can "keep the troops in line", Joe could enact anything he wants. But Joe is statesman enough to realize there is another side - pragmatically, he also knows "November '22" is not all that far off.

All told, until COVID is under control and becomes "this century's poliomyelitis", Joe is not even thinking about anything relating to passenger rail.
  by electricron
 
David Benton wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:24 am "no results to date"
The new administration has been in office for 12 days ???
"Do you really believe within the next 10 years we will actually see a foot of additional high speed rail tracks operating with it? Or any new cities added to Amtrak's national network?"
Yes , I do .I expect CASHR will have at least 1/2 its system running , hopefully all of it .
Depending on your interpretation of High(er) speed, I expect There to be progress in the South East , most likely Virginia and North Carolina.
Its not hard to see America needs to add a zero to the left of the decimal point on this , maybe even 2. I am expecting Biden to add a .5 .
Have you seen how much it will cost to implement the S-Line 110 mph upgrade? Over $4 Billion in 2010 money, who know how much it is today? Both states have finally bought the old right-of-way sounds like great news, until you read that the old right-of-way is only used for 60%-65% of the new preferred 110 mph routing. They still have to buy that additional 35%-40% of the new right-if-way.

That's why Wiki reports the following.
"In response, the North Carolina-Virginia Interstate High-Speed Rail Compact Commission has proposed investigating a staged effort that would first restore the S line to its 79 mph (127 km/h) max speed state from the 1980s, and pursue other improvements only after service was restored."

If they choose to do that, and implement the much cheaper restoring only just the existing line, there will not be any 110 mph operations for much longer period than 10 years, if ever.
Because once the line is up and running, it will be good enough. They will at every opportunity "value" engineer the S Line as much as possible to build it as cheap as possible. There are many other projects these states could spend that money on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast ... %93Raleigh

As for CHSR, if the new appropriations match previous amounts, they will not build another 127 miles of new tracks to reach 254 miles, still less than half the 530 miles needed to build Phase 1. 10 years later means inflation has reduced its worth, and the initial 127 miles was chosen because it was the cheapest to build new. The next sections will be more expensive, and will take longer to build than this first section. Tunnels will be needed.
There is a valid reason why the Central Pacific RR only built 675 miles of tracks while the Union Pacific built 1125 miles of tracks on the first transcontinental railroad. Tunnels, lots of them.
Last edited by electricron on Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by eolesen
 
Also yet to be seen what happens with CAHSR having defaulted on the original grant covenants. It's possible DOT could hold back future funds for other purposes. Just because rail is on the Biden agenda doesn't mean Mayor Pete will continue to send it down a black hole.

Gateway needs that money worse than Central California does.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

  by R&DB
 
eolesen wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:12 pm Also yet to be seen what happens with CAHSR having defaulted on the original grant covenants. It's possible DOT could hold back future funds for other purposes. Just because rail is on the Biden agenda doesn't mean Mayor Pete will continue to send it down a black hole.

Gateway needs that money worse than Central California does.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk
I think Mayor Pete has a lot of rail homework to do. Unless Gateway is fully funded the NEC is gone soon. All rail from Boston to Richmond will be affected. Mayor Pete: Rail is more efficient than cars, trucks and airplanes Combined!
  by R36 Combine Coach
 
R&DB wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:51 pm Unless Gateway is fully funded the NEC is gone soon. All rail from Boston to Richmond will be affected.
Unless you could work to have PANYNJ use the carfloat at Bayonne for through Boston-Virginia service.

Plus side: diesels could be used (no more tunnels).
  by Backshophoss
 
Car floats not safe for passengers, and sloooow across the Bay
PANYNJ SHOULD lead the Design/Build of Gateway.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Lest there be any doubt, Mayor Pete was confirmed 85-15 by the Senate and has apparently been sworn in.

The highway freight industry seems to be "all happy". so seems the AAR - and so for that matter, does NARP/RPA; or however that outfit designates themselves nowadays.
  by electricron
 
eolesen wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:12 pm Gateway needs that money worse than Central California does.
For some reason every topic about the Gateway Tunnels will eventually be moved to New York City's sub forum, so I guess I'll just respond to you here. It has been posted before, but gets lost so quickly in a dedicated topic not in the NYC forums..

Here is the sad news for new Gateway Tunnel proponents.
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny ... story.html
"Cuomo says report shows Hudson River rail tunnels can be fixed without closing
Gov. Cuomo on Sunday said an incoming report will poke a hole in plans to fix a pair of 110-year-old Hudson River rail tunnels damaged by Hurricane Sandy in 2012.
But Cuomo said a new report will show the current tunnels can be fixed without closing — citing a similar strategy the Metropolitan Transportation Authority used to fix the L train’s Sandy-damaged East River tunnel.
The two new tunnels would have the added benefit of untangling bottlenecks near Penn Station and increasing the frequency of trains across the river. But if they’re found to be simply to increase capacity and aren’t essential to fixing the current tunnels, the project could have a harder time qualifying for federal funding.
The report has been compiled by the engineering consultant London Bridge Associates, which was contracted by the Port Authority in July 2019. It’s been delivered to the Gateway Program Development Corporation, a nonprofit formed to stump for the tunnel project."

NJ will not build new Gateway tunnels alone, neither can Amtrak afford to do it alone, and NY no longer wants to build new Gateway tunnels anymore. Do you really believe Amtrak Joe wants to dig into this hornet's nest?
Wake up everybody!

Let's find the money to repair the old North River Tunnels first, NOW!
Repairing them does not require Amtrak to do an EIS, or get EPA, USACE, NJ, nor NY permits.
Let's stop ignoring that independent study like it was never done.
Then reevaluate how much you really need and are willing to spend on the new Gateway Tunnels.
  by STrRedWolf
 
electricron wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:14 pm NJ will not build new Gateway tunnels alone, neither can Amtrak afford to do it alone, and NY no longer wants to build new Gateway tunnels anymore. Do you really believe Amtrak Joe wants to dig into this hornet's nest?
Wake up everybody!
My question to you is: How many trains are running through the tracks per hour during rush hour at this day and age?

If it's above six per hour, then repairs cannot happen and you need to build more capacity. It's *THAT* simple.

In fact, let me answer that question just by going to NJ Transit's site. Look up the schedule between Secaucus and NYP... EIGHT per hour. And that's just NJ Transit trains. Amtrak will add more on top of that.

I have coffee. I have facts. I've checked them from the sources. You can't repair the tunnels unless you shut down one, and you will have to shut down one to do the repairs right. And you can't shut it down because you got too much traffic. Plain and simple.

(it also helps to link to the report using the "URL" tags provided by the forum software. I can't find what you're linking.)
  by electricron
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:52 am
electricron wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:14 pm NJ will not build new Gateway tunnels alone, neither can Amtrak afford to do it alone, and NY no longer wants to build new Gateway tunnels anymore. Do you really believe Amtrak Joe wants to dig into this hornet's nest?
Wake up everybody!
My question to you is: How many trains are running through the tracks per hour during rush hour at this day and age?

If it's above six per hour, then repairs cannot happen and you need to build more capacity. It's *THAT* simple.

In fact, let me answer that question just by going to NJ Transit's site. Look up the schedule between Secaucus and NYP... EIGHT per hour. And that's just NJ Transit trains. Amtrak will add more on top of that.

I have coffee. I have facts. I've checked them from the sources. You can't repair the tunnels unless you shut down one, and you will have to shut down one to do the repairs right. And you can't shut it down because you got too much traffic. Plain and simple.

(it also helps to link to the report using the "URL" tags provided by the forum software. I can't find what you're linking.)
I am not making that argument that the tunnels can be repaired without shutting them down, the Governor of New York is. And he has an official report paid by the Port Authority from experts making that argument. Believe it or not, the tunnels are shut down every night so maintenance can be done. They will be using that maintenance period to make the needed repairs.
  by Backshophoss
 
What really needs to be done is a total rebuild of both tubes under the hudson,a total removal of all of the concrete ,wiring and rebar affected by Sandy/brackish water.
Only way to do that is by building Gateway to relive the traffic flow,,figure on some repairs to the iron shell that PRR installed over a century ago
  by urr304
 
It is obvious to even us here out in the hinterlands that the North River tunnels need total renovation. I suppose the new tubes planned in Gateway may take too long, so the powers to be had better start making plans for major disruptions. Rerouting is quite limited, I am sure current commuters will object to being placed on ferries or using PATH trains or commuter busses, if NJT is cut from number of trains allowed into Penn Station. Not a lot of options after years of inaction by a lot of players of all stripes.
  by John_Perkowski
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:27 am All told, until COVID is under control and becomes "this century's poliomyelitis", Joe is not even thinking about anything relating to passenger rail.
Covid, and it’s disruption to the economy, are Presidential Job 1.

Overall rail service will be a part of Secretary Buttigieg’s infrastructure announcement. January 2022, anyone, for that?
  by electricron
 
NY Daily News article link
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny ... story.html
"But Cuomo said a new report will show the current tunnels can be fixed without closing — citing a similar strategy the Metropolitan Transportation Authority used to fix the L train’s Sandy-damaged East River tunnel.
In that project, crews saved time by hanging electrical and communications cables on the tunnel walls and patching up damaged concrete with fiber panels. Similar to the current repair plans for the Hudson River tubes, MTA engineers had previously planned to rip out and replace thousands of feet of concrete to house the cables."

So, if you do not have to rip out the concrete vaults by moving the cabling to the tunnel walls, you will not have to shut the tunnels down for a prolong period of time.

Per Wiki,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_River_Tunnels
"The tunnels were built with drilling and blasting techniques and tunneling shields, which were placed at three locations and driven towards each other. The shields proceeded west from Manhattan, east and west from Weehawken, and east from the Bergen portals.
Under the river itself, the tunnels started in rock, using drill and blast, but the strata under the river was pure mud for a considerable depth. As a result, this part was driven under compressed air, using 194-ton shields that met about 3,000 feet (910 m) from the Weehawken and Manhattan portals. The mud was such that the shield was shoved forward without taking any ground; however, it was found that the shield was easier to steer if some mud was taken in through holes at the front, since the mud had the consistency of toothpaste. After the tubes had been excavated, they were lined with 2.5-foot-wide (0.76 m) segmental cast-iron rings, each weighing 22 tons. The segments were bolted together and lined with 22-inch (56 cm) of concrete.

Note, they were lined with concrete - the structural support and watertight barrier is the cast iron segmental rings. 2.5 feet of cast iron is 30 inches thick, the concrete lining is only 22 inches thick.

And the final collaboration of the report by London Bridge Associates, as reported in the wiki link provided.
"In February 2020, Amtrak indicated that it would go forward with the renovation of the North River Tunnels regardless of the Gateway Program's status."

London Bridge Associates report to the Port Authority, Governor Cuomo, and now Amtrak have officially stated they do not need the new Gateway tunnels to repair the North River tunnels.

Why are so many still making the opposite argument? Are their heads buried in sand ignoring the latest reports and studies?

FYI, London Bridge Associates is a firm with over 500 years of history. They are not some fly by night firm replying yes sir to their political masters.
https://www.lba.london/

Additionally, as an aside, too many folks think the containment building around nuclear reactors are made from just concrete. They are wrong. Per Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containment_building
"The containment building itself is typically an airtight steel structure enclosing the reactor normally sealed off from the outside atmosphere. The steel is either free-standing or attached to the concrete missile shield. In the United States, the design and thickness of the containment and the missile shield are governed by federal regulations (10 CFR 50.55a), and must be strong enough to withstand the impact of a fully loaded passenger airliner without rupture."

The concrete you see is just a missile shield to protect the steel structure that provides the real containment.

I believe you will find the same is true for the tunnels. ;)